14-06-2003 03:27									#1
	Official Response to Vox Peace Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ok, here's a draft for our official response...

From the People of Legoland,

Though in this time of ping-pong diplomacy it may be hard to sort out what statements are true, what statements are false, and what statements have been twisted beyond repair, it is necessary that people (and teams) draw their own conclusions and opinions from the morass of words thrown at them.

As such, we of Legoland are of the opinion that peace is the only answer. While it is true that Vox may have committed a trecherous act, it is also true that they have repented for it, and have paid a steep price for their actions. While it has been said that what goes on in Estonia is nobody's business but Vox and Gathering Storm, world stability is the concern of everyone.

	14-06-2003 03:31									#2
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

sorry, I'm doing this in smaller sections because it's storming pretty fierce here... don't want to lose anything if the power flickers.

GS has several times accused Vox of playing up their position as a victem instead of an aggressor. This is a true statement, but I believe the rest of the world is smart enough to understand the truth of the situation, regardless how Vox spins it. Perhaps Vox has gained sympathy not because of their loss, but because of the early diplomatic faltering of GS. Threats, boasts, and general sneering at the rest of the world is no way to gain support for one's viewpoint.

	14-06-2003 03:36									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

But, back to the point at hand: peace. GS has rejected Vox's proposal, and given their reasons for doing so. While some of their reaons may be valid, and others not, closing the door on negotiation seems a harsh step. And again, while it is true that GS may be able to wipe Vox out and there isn't a thing anyone can do to stop them, that doesn't mean that they should. We the people of Legoland would strongly urge a pause on both sides to this conflict so all my discuss together the issues. It is hard to negotiate in good faith when troops are still streaming through the fields on both sides.

As I have said, these are our feelings on the issue: all we ask is that you take them into consideration.

	14-06-2003 03:46									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

What is this? We are saying basically nothing.
If we don't promise something for peace, or threaten, or support someone or whatever, it is like saying nothing. I'm really sorry to say it Zargon, but these are empty words.

Edit: Oops, I was reading offline and Zargon has added more to his first staement. But I still don't feel that this is something that others would care about.

	14-06-2003 04:10									#5
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX And again, while it is true that GS may be able to wipe Vox out and there isn't a thing anyone can do to stop them, that doesn't mean that they should.

This especially should not be said. We might not be able to send troops on Estonia, but GoW and RP could, and GS must believe they might.

	14-06-2003 04:26									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

No, Tiberius, you are right. It does lack something... I was trying to keep this one as the "nice" speech, and perhaps I should throw something in about being rewarded for pursuing peace.

However, once that is inevtiably rejected by GS, we can move on to the "mean" speech, hopefully with GoW and RP along side us.

	14-06-2003 07:32									#7
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Though in this time of ping-pong diplomacy it may be hard to sort out what statements are true, what statements are false, and what statements have been twisted beyond repair, it is necessary that people (and teams) draw their own conclusions and opinions from the morass of words thrown at them.

TBH, not sure if this paragraph is really needed... good writing, but I think everyone knows this.

quote: As such, we of Legoland are of the opinion that peace is the only answer.

Perhaps change to "right answer"? Considering the advantage GS seems to have over Vox, it certainly doesn't seem like the only.

quote: While it is true that Vox may have committed a trecherous act, it is also true that they have repented for it, and have paid a steep price for their actions. While it has been said that what goes on in Estonia is nobody's business but Vox and Gathering Storm, world stability is the concern of everyone.

quote: GS has several times accused Vox of playing up their position as a victem instead of an aggressor. This is a true statement, but I believe the rest of the world is smart enough to understand the truth of the situation, regardless how Vox spins it. Perhaps Vox has gained sympathy not because of their loss, but because of the early diplomatic faltering of GS. Threats, boasts, and general sneering at the rest of the world is no way to gain support for one's viewpoint.

I'd take out the last sentence. Save it, and if there's a mean speech use it then.

quote: But, back to the point at hand: peace. GS has rejected Vox's proposal, and given their reasons for doing so. While some of their reaons may be valid, and others not, closing the door on negotiation seems a harsh step. And again, while it is true that GS may be able to wipe Vox out and there isn't a thing anyone can do to stop them, that doesn't mean that they should.

I agree with Tiberius here; take out "and there isn't a thing anyone can do to stop them".

quote: We the people of Legoland would strongly urge a pause on both sides to this conflict so all my discuss together the issues. It is hard to negotiate in good faith when troops are still streaming through the fields on both sides. As I have said, these are our feelings on the issue: all we ask is that you take them into consideration.

Overall good. Perhaps we should emphasize GS' PR failure, and then hint at better relations should peace be signed.

	14-06-2003 09:51									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

This would be our official note posted in the public thread, right? Accompanied by a private message offering Theo for ceasing hostilities, right? Then it is fine with me - and I agree with the comments of Tiberius and Kloreep.

	14-06-2003 10:31									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

From the People of Legoland,

Though in this time of ping-pong diplomacy it may be hard to sort out what statements are true, what statements are false, and what statements have been twisted beyond repair, it is necessary that people (and teams) draw their own conclusions and opinions from the morass of words thrown at them.

As such, we of Legoland are of the opinion that peace is the right answer. While it is true that Vox may have committed a trecherous act, it is also true that they have repented for it, and have paid a steep price for their actions. While it has been said that what goes on in Estonia is nobody's business but Vox and Gathering Storm, world stability is the concern of everyone.

GS has several times accused Vox of playing up their position as a victem instead of an aggressor. This is a true statement, but I believe the rest of the world is smart enough to understand the truth of the situation, regardless how Vox spins it. Perhaps Vox has gained sympathy not because of their loss, but because of the early diplomatic faltering of GS.

But, back to the point at hand: peace. GS has rejected Vox's proposal, and given their reasons for doing so. While some of their reaons may be valid, and others not, closing the door on negotiation seems a harsh step. And again, while it is true that GS may be able to wipe Vox out, that doesn't mean that they should. We the people of Legoland would strongly urge a pause on both sides to this conflict so all may discuss together the issues. It is hard to negotiate in good faith when troops are still streaming through the fields on both sides.

As I have said, these are our feelings on the issue: all we ask is that you take them into consideration. There is still a chance for good things to come from all of this, if people are willing to work together.

	14-06-2003 10:43									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Just nit-picking...

treacherous
victim

	14-06-2003 10:49									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

Bah! Spelling be damned!



Anyway, posted in the main forum, and message sent to ManicStarSeed that I wish to speak with him.

	15-06-2003 06:52									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Theseus has announced in the "thread" that he will seek to completely destroy Vox.

Vox delenda est he says (like what the Romans said about Carthage I bet)

Supposedly favoured by Theseus, Sir Ralph and DeepO - they are forming the StormHawk Party.

Edit: Thought we might want to talk to the other teams again but with RP clearly backing out now and the divisions in GoW - it may not worth it - except perhaps how to deal with GS in the future - plus I initially thought this was GS declaring that they were going to destroy Vox, but clearly it is going to be an internal discussion between the hawks and doves.

Last edited by Sharpe on 15-06-2003 at 07:25

	15-06-2003 10:35									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well, frankly, I think it may be time to just write Vox off. They are pretty much screwed, regardless of our efforts. However, all is not for naught, as I think we can still pull a deal for Theo and a no-Sistene's with GS anyway.

If this game has taught us anything so far, it's that sometimes you need to put your own goals ahead of others. It's time for us to stop worrying so much about the eventual fate of Vox and worry more about our own fate. GS is going to come out of this very powerful, and while we shouldn't aim to be more powerful than them, we want to keep a close second.

I know many on this team feel bad for Vox, or feel we owe them something because of promises made, but it's time to move past that. We are Lego, and we're not here to make sacrifices for anyone else. We can still make some good deals out of this whole fiasco, and put ourselves into a solid position. But, for the moment, I saw we stop putting ourselves on the line for Vox, and work towards bettering ourselves.

	15-06-2003 11:29									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Let's chill here... we knew very well that there were hawks among GS. This is no unexpected news. We should continue negotiating along the lines of our chat with GS last night.

Let me remind you:

1) Voxes would fill Legos Minor perfectly
2) Legos Minor may house an extremely powerful researching civ - the amount of commerce is surprising (I have been playing with city placement options). Having a strong researcher basically our vassal state would be very important strategically.
3) we still want the deal - Theo for no Sistine's. And I am optimistic - I believe we can get it.

Also - this is quite important from the diplomatic point of view. If we let GS spit in our face and tell us "get stuffed with your peace proposal" (despite us being GENEROUS in offering them a good deal), we actually admit we feel we are a second rate world power they can do this to.

But we are THE world power - and everybody shall realize that. Keep in mind that it is not only our actual military and economic strength what matters. It is the perceived strength, in the first place. Chickening out on the first hearing of hawkish intentions from some GS members does not really help our image of a strong nation.

I do not see there would be any change in how Vox may benefit us on Legos Minor. All the reasons we have had to hop them there still stand. GS will not follow them - fighting a war with us over the big sea is the last thing they would be dying for, irrespective of their public announcements.

Do not get me wrong - I got pissed off a lot during the chat, finding out that Voxes leaked the plan, effectively striking out most trumps out of our hand. But I am trying to look far into the future here. Voxes on Legos Minor are an asset, believe me. If you recall GS concerns about a tech embargo... that is exactly what Voxes would be our guarantee against. With one team always on our side, trading techs, we will be much less vulnerable to tech embargoes from other teams.

Do not take this lightly - sooner or later, this is going to happen, because we are rising to power. All our friends or "friends" that will be in a position to win the game will sooner or later turn against us, simply because they will not be able to win if staying our friends. We better make sure we have some allies then...

	15-06-2003 11:36									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

And to clarify my stance: We ARE putting our goals ahead of everything else, especially ahead of the benefit of Vox Controli. Just that these goals should be, IMHO, easier to achieve with Voxes by our side than if we write them off now.

I am strictly counting pros and cons, no noble intentions involved at this moment.

Do not get confused by the GS bluff - they have no means to hunt Voxes down on Legos Minor. And they badly need our deal to get back into the tech race.

Let them rattle their sabres. We have our own goals to stick to.

	15-06-2003 15:47									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I agree with vondrack: GS does not have final say over whether Vox moves, and they'll realize this sooner or later. Hopefully sooner, but they can always watch the capitol move when they drive Vox off Estonia instead.

However, I'm concerned about Vox revealing their survival ticket. Perhaps "concerned" is an understatement. Either a) we did not clearly communicate to Vox how much we wanted LM under wraps for now (I think this is probably what happened), or b) they are still acting as if they are a world-class civ that can negotiate head-to-head with GS. Vox needs to realize that they are dead if they stay on Estonia, and that they will basically be under our thumb on LM. As amusing as some of the public announcements have been, our Vox transplant may be seen as Lego taking responsibility for Vox - in a diplomatic sense in addition to the military and economic ways we will have to look out for them at first. If that's the case, I don't want Vox continuing to swap secrets around in chats, attempting to find some diplomatic advantage they can use. We need to make it clear that if we tell Vox something, they should keep it to themselves unless we say otherwise; and we need to make it clear just how much we'll be demanding from them. (We are going to pursue at least some of the clauses I posted a few days ago in the poll, right? )

So, I propose a chat with Vox, and soon; as soon as we get a LM treaty worked up.

	15-06-2003 17:06									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep and we need to make it clear just how much we'll be demanding from them. (We are going to pursue at least some of the clauses I posted a few days ago in the poll, right? )

Definitely, Kloreep, this will be a must. I will appreciate if someone starts a discussion on this topic, even if it's just throwing ideas - I will do my best to address the issue in detail later today - unfortunately, I have some stuff to finish first and then my mum is celebrating her birthday today, so it will be a couple of hours before I get to this.

P.S.: the "leak" was 99% a matter of an individual or individuals doing diplomacy the wrong way or - and that is most likely - a matter of one RL-friend from Vox telling another RL-friend from GS. I did make it very clear we wanted to have the LM plan remain secret. Either he did not pass my message properly on or some Vox or Voxians missed it(s importance).

I was pretty harsh in my email to Beta last night. He has already apologized to me and to the whole of Lego and promised no more faux pas like this. Will post both my email and his response once I get back home in the evening.

	15-06-2003 20:22									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

FLASH!

Leaving in a minute or two, but this is extremely important...

I have just received a confidential PM from Beta (do not tell anyone we were informed, please). It seems that there was a breakthrough in the peace talks! It is very likely that Voxes will sign peace with GS very soon - perhaps even before playing this turn. The terms are "acceptable".

Could it be that our initiative saved the day?

Will keep you up to date.

	15-06-2003 20:29									#19
	Increase Your PM Length

Yes, perhaps I am overreacting, but as others have noted, the situation is very frustrating. Sometimes Vox gives the impression that they just don't want to be saved. However, your newsflash is encouraging, Vondrack. Let us hope that develops into something more substantial

	16-06-2003 00:10									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Sorry to take the good news back...

After coming back home from my mom's birthday party, I have found out another PM from Beta. What looked like a breakthrough peace draft was actually just a personal effort of one of the GS members having ties to one of the Voxes. It was not official.

So we are still in the midst of heavy negotiating, nothing solved or agreed to yet.

And re: Voxes not wanting to be saved... I find it rather funny that the history repeats itself here - leaks and diplomatic faux pas was EXACTLY what led to the demise of Lux Invicta. I remember very well how Beta explained Lux became too much of a diplomatic burden for Vox eventually, because of not being patient enough to keep quiet, lay low, and wait for others to help them.

I am going to stress that again to him - fortunately, Beta is not Trip... and Voxes will hopefully remember the lesson THEY learned "from the other side"...

As for the frustration... I understand what you mean PERFECTLY. But let's not allow our frustration to make us forget of the "big picture". There is a LOT in stake now. The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that planting Voxes in Legos Minor and helping them become our "detached research center" might actually be an asset worth pure gold.

	16-06-2003 00:13									#21
	Put an end to popups!

I just had a thought that we should probably add as an addendum to any Vox relocation: Vox must keep 1 warrior in reserve to trigger our GA for us when we request it. It would be awful handy to have a ready-made GA just waiting for us when we decide we need it.

	16-06-2003 00:32									#22
	Remove this text

Yes, good idea, Zargon. I believe it is time to start discussing (within our team) the very basics of our coexistence and cooperation with Vox Controli.

After reading the public Vox apology and the responses from GS (especially the hawk-wingers), I am now quite positive that the peace will be reached. Soon.

Let's await the upcoming news with great hope.

	16-06-2003 23:40									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Thought I would keep you all up to date - it seems that I will soon be able to take back what I took back before...

Peace talks are apparently proceeding well now and what started as a personal initiative of Eli becomes now the official treaty being discussed and hopefully accepted by GS eventually.

Here is the good news from Vox:

quote: Hi radek - Eli tells me that GS likes the agreement - with some very minor changes. Which is good news. It will allow your new northen neighbour to start off on the right foot. The dynamics of this game are remarkable. When you take a look at it - nothing has changed from two days ago to now in any material way. The only difference is the public apology. Which would indicate that GS are more ruled by their emotions than they would like to think they are. Which is fine by us at Vox. Besides - I really did sleep better last night. So the same clearly applies to me.

On another note - Arrian's summary of the GS-Vox war posted in the public forum pretty much confirms my impression. Voxes lost the war because of waiting too long, missing the right moment to attack (I mean, attack something - units or cities, not just invade GS).

	17-06-2003 02:55									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Like Hannabil who could of crushed rome but turned and went south instead.