15-06-2003 01:21									#31
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , lets get one thing strait , Greek Orhodox = cristians or catholics Jewish Orhodox = jew have a nice day

panag, sometimes you're really ottokish!

	15-06-2003 01:32									#32
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Well it goes down like that in Israeli public.


The haredi groups and so on do not see modern day Israel as the one promised as a salvation in the prophecy. They see it more as a temporary stage that some non-religious jews set up. But since it's not a religious state, and it was not set up by the messiah, it is not prohpetic.

Infact, most believe that the current state is only ruining the prophey, and pospotning the real salvation, when a messiah comes.

Thus, many small ultra-orthodox groups, such as for instance Neturei Karta, despise Israel, and do their best diplomatically to hurt it.


But the majority of relgious jews, ranging from plain religious (not ultra / haredi) to spiritual (loosely religious) jews, believe it is some kind of salvation.

The completely non religious, see it as a historical rather than a religious salvation, and like to use the scripture from time to time, to support the cultural side.

	15-06-2003 01:39									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Well it goes down like that in Israeli public. The haredi groups and so on do not see modern day Israel as the one promised as a salvation in the prophecy. They see it more as a temporary stage that some non-religious jews set up. But since it's not a religious state, and it was not set up by the messiah, it is not prohpetic. Infact, most believe that the current state is only ruining the prophey, and pospotning the real salvation, when a messiah comes. Thus, many small ultra-orthodox groups, such as for instance Neturei Karta, despise Israel, and do their best diplomatically to hurt it. But the majority of relgious jews, ranging from plain religious (not ultra / haredi) to spiritual (loosely religious) jews, believe it is some kind of salvation. The completely non religious, see it as a historical rather than a religious salvation, and like to use the scripture from time to time, to support the cultural side.

hi ,

actually the ones in Israel tend to be more or less okay , some of the orhodox living overseas have really "funny" ideas , ....

but luckely they tend to be a small portion of the entire world population of jews

have a nice day

	15-06-2003 05:38									#34
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quote: Originally posted by elijah "The Jews will return in Peace to the land of Israel" I dont see that happening, the irrational backlash to the horrors of the holocaust is hardly the fullfillment of a biblical prophecy, that most would safely assume to be heralded by the coming of a (new?) messianic age.

The way I interpret your statement is that you believe that the surviving Jews who fled Europe for the promise of a land of their own in Israel was irrational. If that is the case you should be made aware that after the surrender of Germany in May, 1945 for most European Jews the war was definately not over. Most faced continued persecution when they tried to their homes in central and eastern Europe. A Europe whipped up by years of Nazi propaganda, not to mention centuries of traditional bigotry, and aggravated by the miseries of the utter devastation of modern war offered the returning Jews nothing more than a continuation of the persecution that theu had faced before, only less ruthlessly efficient thatn that orchestrated by the Nazis.

	15-06-2003 05:41									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove The way I interpret your statement is that you believe that the surviving Jews who fled Europe for the promise of a land of their own in Israel was irrational. If that is the case you should be made aware that after the surrender of Germany in May, 1945 for most European Jews the war was definately not over. Most faced continued persecution when they tried to return to their homes in central and eastern Europe. A Europe whipped up by years of Nazi propaganda, not to mention centuries of traditional bigotry, and aggravated by the miseries of the utter devastation of modern war offered the returning Jews nothing more than a continuation of the persecution that they had faced before, only less ruthlessly efficient thatn that orchestrated by the Nazis.

	15-06-2003 12:47									#36
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Plan Austral:

I'm an evangelical Protestant, so I have to say both yes and no.

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Rom. 10:12, 13)

True, but read a little bit further down:

Romans 11:11-13, 18-19

"Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring?"

"..do not boast over the branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."

Christians owe a debt to the Jews, in that much of what we have only comes to us as the Jews preserved the Law. The Jews were God's first chosen people, and Christians have to respect God's decision.

So yes, I am more inclined to give the religious Jews more leeway, than say the Palestinians. As for whether they deserve a special land, I would rather have had them settle in Ethiopia. It would have caused less strife than in Judea.

Also, I agree with Troll and the rest, that our real treasure comes not from an Earthly kingdom, but from the heavenly kingdom available to all who believe in Christ.

	15-06-2003 15:31									#37
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Plan Austral: I'm an evangelical Protestant, so I have to say both yes and no. "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Rom. 10:12, 13) True, but read a little bit further down: Romans 11:11-13, 18-19 "Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring?" "..do not boast over the branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Christians owe a debt to the Jews, in that much of what we have only comes to us as the Jews preserved the Law. The Jews were God's first chosen people, and Christians have to respect God's decision. So yes, I am more inclined to give the religious Jews more leeway, than say the Palestinians. As for whether they deserve a special land, I would rather have had them settle in Ethiopia. It would have caused less strife than in Judea. Also, I agree with Troll and the rest, that our real treasure comes not from an Earthly kingdom, but from the heavenly kingdom available to all who believe in Christ.

The Sin Debt was paid in Full at Golgotha (Calvary) and we are all one now, I think I hear you saying that Jewsish have some sort of hierachy perhaps or maybe I am misinterpretting what your saying, not clear, sorry, but for sure this is true: we are all sinners and Christ paid the price, to him we owe, but thanks to Grace, we owe nothing, since Grace is a gift and thus is feely given

Peace

Grandpa Troll

	15-06-2003 15:41									#38
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"Christians owe a debt to the Jews, in that much of what we have only comes to us as the Jews preserved the Law."

This is the nature of the debt, one of respect.

Clearer Troll?

	15-06-2003 15:44									#39
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 "Christians owe a debt to the Jews, in that much of what we have only comes to us as the Jews preserved the Law." This is the nature of the debt, one of respect. Clearer Troll?

YES...

Thanks

God Bless

Off to church, we have Lord's Supper observance and I have a class to lead,


Peace

Grandpa Troll

	15-06-2003 22:21									#40
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Sorry Panag, Greek Orthodox <> Catholics. Not that I am supporting one or other - but they have a lot of differences and have for many centuries.

I can understand some Greek Orthodox clergy saying this is Biblical prophecy - but I think Paiktis idea of asking the Synod (management) might be a better idea.

I say might be because Synod's rarely agree on anything other than what is not correct belief.

	15-06-2003 22:29									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Sorry Panag, Greek Orthodox <> Catholics. Not that I am supporting one or other - but they have a lot of differences and have for many centuries. I can understand some Greek Orthodox clergy saying this is Biblical prophecy - but I think Paiktis idea of asking the Synod (management) might be a better idea. I say might be because Synod's rarely agree on anything other than what is not correct belief.

hi ,

not always i know orhodox greek christians also , ....

have a nice day

	15-06-2003 22:35									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Troll Its a Movie..not reality as in The Truth, God's inspired written word. Read the Bible and pray for forgiveness and understanding and yes you to will recieve peace from The Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ! Peace Grandpa Troll

If hes the prince of peace, how come there is so much smiting in the bible?

	15-06-2003 23:43									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen If hes the prince of peace, how come there is so much smiting in the bible?

The best explanation I can offer is Jesus Christ came to bring peace and in mans sinfulless peace is not only ignored but blatantly disregarded.


God has in past and will in future "smite" those that oppose his plan for Mankind in eternity.

I would have to look at what context you are referring to, but I would say that God used examples for us to follow and examples of what may indeed happen for the non-repentant.

This is not to say when we sin God will strike us down, but rather he has that option and has used in past. God know all and I will save the judgement for Him to pass out and count my blessing I dont receive that!

Sometimes God takes away a person to save them from doing wrong, sometimes God takes away a person to use as an example that we are not promised tommorrow.

Stephen is a Martyr that was stoned (Acts Chapter 6 verse 5 through Chapter 7 verse 60) Stephen spoke boldly of the Holy Spirit and paid the ultimate price. Why? Because God would use him as yet another example...John 15:13.."Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends"


Peace


Grandpa Troll