14-06-2003 16:06									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer that's why there's public education, small business loans, college loans, etc...

Didn't we go through this before? The gap between the rich and poor in the US has widened significantly in the last 20 years or so.

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Excuse me? when did Jefferson and Adams and all them try to escape religious persecution? The US was founded in 1776...

No, but a significant portion of the original colonies were people seeking religious freedom.

Even if we agree to your rules in this particular case, however, the US wasn't founded by people who didn't like taxation. They were founded by people who didn't like taxation without representation.

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Plenty of successes... the few remaining ones that don't seem successful (Taiwan I guess) just need some more time. Looking at America in 1900, one could easily say that capitalism had only resulted in suffering for people but now in 2003, the standard of living has increased greatly.

Not really. Outside of Western Europe, Scandinavia, and North America, the only successes are the Four Asian Tigers (RoK, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong), none of which became successful because of capitalism alone. Okay, there also the Aussies and the Kiwis, but that's pretty much it.

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer And **** lasseiz-faire capitalism... it only results in monopolies which is hardly capitalistic...

Why monopolies aren't capitalistic? In fact, laissez-faire is the purist form of capitalism. If you look at public educations and things like that, those are socialistic influences.

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer As is always said, communism fails because people are greedy... thus, communism requires a change in the nature of people to not be greedy. Capitalism makes do with this flaw and is viable despite imperfect men.

None of the OB (organisation behaviour) theory I know of stipulates human beings to be greedy. In fact, most of them denies people to be purely "economic man."

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Again... time is a factor. give capitalism a generation or two

Lots and lots of South America, African, and Asian countries have been at it for quite some time.

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer perhaps but high taxes, difficult regulations for businesses to fulfill, etc. did not entice industries to stay in the cities.

It's not that simple. A lot of "difficult" regulations are not as much as anti-business as they are for other concerns such as workplace conditions, health, environmental factors, and so forth.

If you look at steel production, the reason why the US lost out to Japan (and RoK) is because the US steel industry failed to adopt better technology. Instead, they relied on government protection. Automobiles are another prime example.

	14-06-2003 16:07									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident you're all hypocrites. all of you socialists would love to be millionaires.

How does that follow?

It is entirely conceivable that a society has such massive production that every member of it is a millionare.

	14-06-2003 16:09									#33
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc BS. I can't believe that they even teach that in other countries.

Okay, then where did your "Puritan work ethic" come from?

	14-06-2003 19:58									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Okay, then where did your "Puritan work ethic" come from?

What does that have to do with the validity of your statement?

	14-06-2003 20:00									#35
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Look at moneypenny and ask yourself. If he was not a capitalist. What on earth other could he possibly be?

	14-06-2003 20:14									#36
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I believe in the capitalist system because it is the best way to run an economy. The problem is, the US doesn't allow the business cycle to run its course. It supports failing industries with protectionist policies, and it doesn't sufficiently prosecute abuses.

I find it funny that people call me "leftist, commie", etc; because the policy changes I believe in are more free-market than what we currently have. Capitalism is a very good model when applied in the right places. Health care, public safety, defense, and infrastructure/energy are areas that Capitalism should not be the model. Private entities, however, should be given the opprotunity to compete with public/government enterprises, but should not be the only alternative. Consumer goods should be entirely free-market. I would go so far as to say business should not be taxed at all. I have some very unorthodox ideas about how the government should collect revenue, etc, but am too lazy to explain here.

	14-06-2003 20:24									#37
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Ohhh, here we go again! Seems like this is the one debate that never gets old....and of course, we gotta hear from the Communists about the evils of capitalism (while they trot out the worn-thin defense of their own system..."but, but....you can't look at Russia if you want to study Communism....Stalin corrupted the system!....you can't look at China if you want to study Communism....Mao corrupted the system!" Same excuse for every failed example of Communism, but there's no trend there, of course....

Capitalism works. Demonstrably. Why? At least in part because of human greed. Capitalism makes no pretense that human beings are perfect.

Communism fails. Demonstrably. Why? At least in part because of human greed. Communism *requires* humans to be more than we are in order to function.

-=Vel=-

	14-06-2003 20:29									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Capitalism works. Demonstrably. Why? At least in part because of human greed. Capitalism makes no pretense that human beings are perfect.

capitialism often makes the pretense that humans are fallable, and are willing to be trampled for the good of few.

	14-06-2003 20:34									#39
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Not buying into it, Uber. True, capitalism takes advantage of human greed by its structure, but nowhere in it will you find a diabolic plot, the end result of which is that a few elites prosper, while everyone else starves. Nor is that borne out in the success stories capitalism has had.

And what of the other side of the coin? Where are the Communist success stories? There are none. Lots of excuses about why there aren't, but successes? None to be found.

After so many attempts, you've gotta wonder why that might be.

-=Vel=-

	14-06-2003 20:36									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Ohhh, here we go again! Seems like this is the one debate that never gets old....and of course, we gotta hear from the Communists about the evils of capitalism (while they trot out the worn-thin defense of their own system..."but, but....you can't look at Russia if you want to study Communism....Stalin corrupted the system!....you can't look at China if you want to study Communism....Mao corrupted the system!" Same excuse for every failed example of Communism, but there's no trend there, of course....

I think Stalin and Mao were both successfull. They both used communism to do what they wanted to do. Stalin created huge economies of scale, and mao decentralized his economy to defend against military attack.

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Capitalism works. Demonstrably. Why? At least in part because of human greed. Capitalism makes no pretense that human beings are perfect. Communism fails. Demonstrably. Why? At least in part because of human greed. Communism *requires* humans to be more than we are in order to function. -=Vel=-

Greed is what created capitalism, but it is also what will make it fail. You notice that the rich keep getting richer while the poor just keep hanging on? Sooner or later that's going to break again. And the next time will be the last. The rich never want to let go of their greedy blood money to save their own economy.

	14-06-2003 20:40									#41
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No...actually I notice the poor keep getting richer, too. I'm one of them, remember?

-=Vel=-

	14-06-2003 20:46									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx No...actually I notice the poor keep getting richer, too. I'm one of them, remember? -=Vel=-

You've got your head in the sand on a lot of things Vel.

	14-06-2003 20:52									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Communism fails. Demonstrably. Why? At least in part because of human greed.

You don't even have to go that far. A simple look at a history book would be enough. However, some people's faith springs eternal.

	14-06-2003 21:01									#44
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You don't even have to go that far. A simple look at a history book would be enough. However, some people's faith springs eternal.

You took what your history teacher taught you and put the matter to rest. Look at the world since them. Sh1ts going down. This century is the last for capitalism. I don't even think it will last that long.

	14-06-2003 21:01									#45
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I don't think greed created Capitalism. Capitalism is freedom. If you want greed, look at the European monarchies before Capitalism. In fact, the free-market system came about as a result of freedom and democracy.

	14-06-2003 21:03									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I don't think greed created Capitalism. Capitalism is freedom. If you want greed, look at the European monarchies before Capitalism. In fact, the free-market system came about as a result of freedom and democracy.

Freedom for the owners of capital. That's it.

	14-06-2003 21:14									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You took what your history teacher taught you and put the matter to rest. Look at the world since them. Sh1ts going down. This century is the last for capitalism. I don't even think it will last that long.

As I said earlier, your faith springs eternal.

	14-06-2003 21:21									#48
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Urban:

quote: Why monopolies aren't capitalistic? In fact, laissez-faire is the purist form of capitalism. If you look at public educations and things like that, those are socialistic influences.

not really...

Capitalism is an economic system by which anyone may succeed by his own merits and there is competition between people and companies. laissez-faire capitalism oddly destroys both these ideas by preventing the poor from getting a good education and by allowing monopolies. That is why capitalist countries have public education and trust busting...

and public education is hardly socialistic considering that it was supported by such 'evil robber barons' like Carnegie and Rockerfeller... allowing everyone to get an education and thus be able to compete on a relatively equal footing in the market is capitalism.

quote: None of the OB (organisation behaviour) theory I know of stipulates human beings to be greedy. In fact, most of them denies people to be purely "economic man."

What the hell? Are you saying that not a single person is greedy?

quote: Lots and lots of South America, African, and Asian countries have been at it for quite some time.

There are few capitalist economies in latin america and basically none in Africa... i don't know what the hell you're talking about...

don't try to start painting dictators as capitalists...


Kidicious:

excuse me? freedom for those who actually worked to get capital... if what you said was true then aristocrats (who had the capital) would have been the champions of capitalism between 1500 and 1900 when in fact they were the ones who were so aggressively against it.


thanks

	14-06-2003 21:24									#49
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I really don't see how you can say that capitalism is dying... the strongest country in the world is capitalist and will clearly never become marxist... not only that but your bastions of communism have either become capitalist or are in transition...

	14-06-2003 21:25									#50
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Is that right, Kid? I think you do not know me very well.

Do you think I just got "lucky" enough to make capitalism work for me, starting out poor and making a change? Is that what you beleive? If so, let me clue you in on my "success story"

****Vel's Track Record****

Grade-School/Childhood Years:

* Grades 1-6, 16 different schools as the family moved around looking for work (Life 1, Vel 0)

* Age 8 - Family settles into a Tenant farmer arrangement in the town of Hartford, Kansas and does so spectacularly bad at it that we cannot afford to heat the place in the winter (winters are damned cold in Kansas). By the following spring, we are kicked off the land. (Life 2, Vel 0)

* Age 9 - the year of living in the big red station wagon. Christmas dinner that year consisted of a can of vienna sausages and a can of pork-n-beans. I got the sporks we ate with from a KFC not far from where we parked/lived, and while there, a nice man noticed a skinny kid in a tattered, thin shirt, and gave up his coat. Dad got the coat from me for Christmas. (Life 3, Vel 0)

* Age 11 - Was put to work by the family, working two jobs. Parents co-opted the paychecks to keep the houshold going. Vel picks up spending money secretly by asking for "drink money" but not buying drinks, and by cutting grass (a third job) for people in the neighborhood. Meets Alan Wilkes, a grandfatherly old man with a passion for coins. He passes his hobby onto a young Vel, and sells him silver coins at face value. They are the boy's prize posession, and his big secret from his family. (Life 3, Vel 1)

* Later that year, first Christmas spent alone (sick, family went across town to a party. Christmas dinner amounted to a can of Chicken soup and a twinkie. Late that evening, the family brings back two deviled eggs from the party). Vel learns about lonliness (Life 4, Vel 1)

* Coins discovered by nosy parents snooping in Vel's room, confiscated and sold. The money is used to replace the (now dead) red station wagon. Vel learns about injustice. (Life 5, Vel 1)

* Despite being dirt poor, and several hard knocks along the way, Vel manages to have mostly good memories from his childhood (Life 5, Vel 2)


*Highschool*
* Mostly uneventful, culminating in a senior class trip to the Bahamas, where Vel's achievements included being the first in his class to find a companion on the ship, getting stoned out of his gourd in the back of a white limo on the island, and going into the interior for a beer with the locals, only to unintentionally slight one, and get chased out by a club-toting Bahamian. (Life 5, Vel 3)

* College*
* Meets the love of his life, only to lose her a year later in a car accident (Life 6, Vel 3)

* Takes stock of his life, and decides he'll always be white trash, so fVck it, why not just off himself. Becomes home-studied in "chemistry" - drinks heavily, experiments with a variety of drugs. (Life 7, Vel 3)

* Learns the dangers of Cults, trying to rescue a friend from one. This culminates in an act of arson in Pamplico, SC, which was never solved. Friend rescued. (Life 7, Vel 4)

* Vel ambushed and beaten for the unsolved act of arson. A week and a half in the hospital. One semester in recovery (Life 8, Vel 4)

* Gets rescued by a friend (from the drugs and alcahol) and pulled back from the brink (Life 8, Vel 5)

* Drops out of school two classes shy of graduation to marry the gal that rescued him and falls into a disaster of a marriage (Life 9, Vel 5)

* Comes home from working one of his three jobs to find the apartment empty and the wife gone. Dear John note where the sofa used to be, and Vel's writing notebooks burned up in the kitchen sink. Later discovers that the soon-to-be ex has maxed out all their credit cards (which were in his name), leaving him nearly 20k--including the car.(Life 10, Vel 5)

* Flakes out, and decides to take a drive. That drive winds up lasting 18 months, and takes him on the most magnificent journey of his life, spanning from Florence, SC to Kennewick, Washington. Eventually, somewhere on the road, he gets his head put back on straight. (Life 10, Vel 6)

* Comes home, driving from Kennewick to Columbia in just over 48 hours. Sleeps for an entire day after. Re-enrolls in school and gets degree (Life 10, Vel 7)

* Graduates on a tuesday, gets a job on a wednesday, and life is good in his two room apartment in a seedy section of town (Life 10, Vel 7).

* Robbed! All posessions stolen (Life 11, Vel 7)

* Lands a real job with decent pay and benefits. Stuff replaced (Life 11, Vel 8)

* A string of bad relationships with women who just wanted someone to buy them stuff. Vel winds up alone, having purchased 3 cars, several wardrobes, and a variety of home electronics equipment for his "friends" before wising up (Life 12, Vel 8)

* Car wreck! Two days in the hospital, nearly a month to recover. (Life 13, Vel 8)

* Corporate downsized out of his job (Life 14, Vel 8)

* Gets a new job....corporate downsized out of it less than six months later (Life 15, Vel 8)

* Spends all of his savings while looking for work (Life 16, Vel 8)

* Gets new job, rebuilds savings (Life 16, Vel 9)

* Completes his first book! Doesn't sell worth a hoot, but still!

* Corporate downsized out of his job less than two years later, again, spends all his savings looking for work (Life 17, Vel 9)

* Gets new, good paying job, and blows lots of money on frivilous trips (Life 17, Vel 10)

* Starts rebuilding savings (Life 17, Vel 11)

* Robbed! All posessions stolen (Life 18, Vel 11)

* Moves into a better neighborhood (Life 18, Vel 12)

* Completes second book! Sells better.....he might have a knack for this stuff!

* All debts from the ex-wife fully repaid (Life 18, Vel 13)

* Downpayment money for a house saved (Life 18, Vel 14)

* Investment account opened (Life 18, Vel 15)

* Contract on a house - moving in on June 26th. (Life 19, Vel 16)

So yeah....as you can see.....a long string of spectacular successes, right? Surely my good fortune has colored my thinking....:


-=Vel=-

	14-06-2003 21:34									#51
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good job keeping your head up, vel... you're catching up with life's score though. hopefully, in ten years, you can say, life 20, Vel 50

	14-06-2003 22:38									#52
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Vel,

Good story, but it is no evidence whatsoever. There are millions of people in the capitalist system who have no such experience. Do you really think it's a good idea to bring up capitalisms record for improving the lives of poor people when it is so poor?

	14-06-2003 22:40									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'm a capitalist because I do want to be a millionare.

You aren't a capitalist at all. You want to be a capitalist. There's a difference. A capitalist is an owner of productive capital, not a booster of capitalism, despite what Imran might think.

	14-06-2003 22:43									#54
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You mean as compared to feudalism?

Prove that a real socialist economy (btw, Sweden isn't one because it has plenty of capitalism) would work ANYWHERE in the world, and then we can talk.

	14-06-2003 23:00									#55
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quote: Prove that a real socialist economy (btw, Sweden isn't one because it has plenty of capitalism) would work ANYWHERE in the world, and then we can talk.

I can't speak for everyone, but when I think of Social Democracy, I think of European countries that have capitalist markets in consumer goods, and state/public run social programs that work. Again, speaking for myself, by equating what socialist-style policies I may support with absolute Socialism (as so many people do on these forums), you make the mistake by assuming we want the US government to be like PyongYang.

	14-06-2003 23:07									#56
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quote: I can't speak for everyone, but when I think of Social Democracy, I think of European countries that have capitalist markets in consumer goods, and state/public run social programs that work.

Ask che... he thinks Social Democracy is a capitalist copout .

Even looking at social democracy, however, most of it IS based on capitalism. So when Kid talks about the failures of capitalism, he has to account for Social Democracies as well (which I simply consider to be a mid-way point for capitalism and socialism).

	14-06-2003 23:19									#57
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How long do people think that the environment and the world's dispossessed are going to put up with the current system of consumer capitalism? It's a totally nutty system - much of our economy is based on producing trivial things which nobody really needs and trashy crap which breaks after a couple of years so you have to buy a new one.

If you ever watch the "Antiques Roadshow" you can see what is wrong with consumer capitalism. Most of that old stuff is well made and that's why it has lasted so well - there's no reason that couldn't be done now other than that it would destroy our silly economy. Same goes for fashions and trends - it's all smoke and mirrors - the wonder is that anyone falls for it.

I mean look at the pop charts as an example of mass stupidity. These measure sales rather than what people are actually listening to, so of course they are subject to rapid change. However, much of the public has managed to be persuaded that sales = popularity, so you get this continual urge to buy the latest thing.

Consumer capitalism is irrational, silly and destructive of the environment and other people. We could feed everyone in the world right now, but we don't because our system of distribution is so stupid that fat Americans are falling over from heart attacks whilst Africans starve by the thousands.

When you evaluate a system, evaluate it on the global scale.

	14-06-2003 23:23									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Ask che... he thinks Social Democracy is a capitalist copout .

It's a system whose aim is to prevent countries going communist, or at least that was the idea. Go back and read some stuff from the Depression. A lot of people at the time were convinced that the communists would take over unless some way of bribing the working class could be found.

Now they think they've succeeded in taming the beast all these bribes are being withdrawn.

quote: Even looking at social democracy, however, most of it IS based on capitalism. So when Kid talks about the failures of capitalism, he has to account for Social Democracies as well (which I simply consider to be a mid-way point for capitalism and socialism).

It depends on the social democracy. Are you telling me that countries that mass nationalised industries were really capitalist?

	14-06-2003 23:24									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I can't speak for everyone, but when I think of Social Democracy, I think of European countries that have capitalist markets in consumer goods, and state/public run social programs that work. Ask che... he thinks Social Democracy is a capitalist copout . Even looking at social democracy, however, most of it IS based on capitalism. So when Kid talks about the failures of capitalism, he has to account for Social Democracies as well (which I simply consider to be a mid-way point for capitalism and socialism).

I don't support European Social Democracy, but I like it better than US Capitalist Democracy. I think Europes economy is more modern than ours in a way. Capitalism is beginning to have more trouble there than in the US.

	14-06-2003 23:27									#60
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quote: It's a system whose aim is to prevent countries going communist, or at least that was the idea.

That's why che hates it . However, I think the real reason was a compromise between left and right, and because the left was growing and wanted reforms (without revolution).

quote: It depends on the social democracy. Are you telling me that countries that mass nationalised industries were really capitalist?

I don't believe any country in Europe is not capitalist.