14-06-2003 04:12									#1
	Why Capitalists are Capitalists... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

there seems to be this crazy idea in the minds of most leftists here that anyone who is capitalist only wants to be the next bill gates... that, however, is so horribly untrue...

i am sure 90+% of pro-capitalists have no realistic intention of trying to be a multi-millionare... their reasons for being capitalists are in no way as materialistic and selfish as some delusional leftists seem to think...

One major reason for capitalism is the idealogical reason derived from Protestantism and the Enlightenment that people should decide their own fate and not have any government (or tyranny of the majority) determining what they will spend their lives doing or what they will do with their money. Even if corporations seem to infringe upon this control of one's one destiny, an individual in a capitalist society can start his own business or enter a different field and continue to control his own fate.

This is a very appealing idea shared by everyone from CEO's to street vendors selling t-shirts and oils... Capitalism allows you to chose what you will become. Your field may not be very profitable but profitable fields do exist for you to enter.

Furthermore, the idea of there being no government dipping into people's pockets is appealing to pro-capitalists... hell, it is appealing to just about every single American. The US was founded by colonists who didn't want to pay taxes and wanted to have self-determination.

There's also practical reasons for being a capitalist, chief among them is that capitalism has been successful. While Marxist idealogies require a fundamental change in the nature of man, capitalism makes do with imperfect men and works. The standard of living in capitalist countries has always risen and new technologies and cheaper and better consumer products have always been made.

There's also the matter of leftist groups harming business and thus harming the livlihood of the people. Nearly every city in the US is proff of this where very influential and usually corrupt unions priced themselves out of work and the city governments themselves, dominated by the unions, made cities inhospitable to businesses, taxing them, regulating them, etc. as a result, industry is completely gone from the cities and all that remains are some service jobs (McDonalds, etc.) and some white collar office jobs. Had city governments been more capitalistic and had the unions not been so encompassing, business growth would have been significant in the cities and more jobs would have been created.

Those are the reasons why capitalists are capitalists... we have no intention of being billionaires... we only want to have an economic system that works and is morally right...


thanks

	14-06-2003 04:18									#2
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I'm a capitalist because I do want to be a millionare. I admite I'll probably be 50 or 60 by the time I reach that point but time, and compound interest, is on my side.

BTW a little bit of greed is a good thing. The desire to improve your living conditions is a powerful motivator if acted upon.

	14-06-2003 04:25									#3
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Oerdin:

yeah but you got no REALISTIC intention of being a multi-millionare... if someone just gave me a dozen million dollars, hell i'd take it but thats not why i'm in favour of a capitalist system.

	14-06-2003 04:33									#4
	Re: Why Capitalists are Capitalists... Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer there seems to be this crazy idea in the minds of most leftists here that anyone who is capitalist only wants to be the next bill gates... that, however, is so horribly untrue... i am sure 90+% of pro-capitalists have no realistic intention of trying to be a multi-millionare... their reasons for being capitalists are in no way as materialistic and selfish as some delusional leftists seem to think... One major reason for capitalism is the idealogical reason derived from Protestantism and the Enlightenment that people should decide their own fate and not have any government (or tyranny of the majority) determining what they will spend their lives doing or what they will do with their money. Even if corporations seem to infringe upon this control of one's one destiny, an individual in a capitalist society can start his own business or enter a different field and continue to control his own fate. This is a very appealing idea shared by everyone from CEO's to street vendors selling t-shirts and oils... Capitalism allows you to chose what you will become. Your field may not be very profitable but profitable fields do exist for you to enter. Furthermore, the idea of there being no government dipping into people's pockets is appealing to pro-capitalists... hell, it is appealing to just about every single American. The US was founded by colonists who didn't want to pay taxes and wanted to have self-determination. There's also practical reasons for being a capitalist, chief among them is that capitalism has been successful. While Marxist idealogies require a fundamental change in the nature of man, capitalism makes do with imperfect men and works. The standard of living in capitalist countries has always risen and new technologies and cheaper and better consumer products have always been made. There's also the matter of leftist groups harming business and thus harming the livlihood of the people. Nearly every city in the US is proff of this where very influential and usually corrupt unions priced themselves out of work and the city governments themselves, dominated by the unions, made cities inhospitable to businesses, taxing them, regulating them, etc. as a result, industry is completely gone from the cities and all that remains are some service jobs (McDonalds, etc.) and some white collar office jobs. Had city governments been more capitalistic and had the unions not been so encompassing, business growth would have been significant in the cities and more jobs would have been created. Those are the reasons why capitalists are capitalists... we have no intention of being billionaires... we only want to have an economic system that works and is morally right... thanks

You expect me to read ALL that?!

	14-06-2003 04:44									#5
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Tassadar:

you know damn well that is almost nothing... it's basically only six real paragraphs...

or is the communist scared that these few paragraphs will completely ruin his perception of capitalism and capitalists?

	14-06-2003 04:49									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Tassadar: you know damn well that is almost nothing... it's basically only six real paragraphs... or is the communist scared that these few paragraphs will completely ruin his perception of capitalism and capitalists?

He's right Tassadar, I read the whole thing and it says nothing.



ACK!

	14-06-2003 04:51									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski He's right Tassadar, I read the whole thing and it says nothing. ACK!

	14-06-2003 04:52									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Oerdin: yeah but you got no REALISTIC intention of being a multi-millionare... if someone just gave me a dozen million dollars, hell i'd take it but thats not why i'm in favour of a capitalist system.

You need to think big my friend. If you are 25 and you invest $5000 dollars per year for five years and then stop when you are 30 then just let the money site you will be a millionare by the time you retire. That of course assumes an 11% rate of return (stocks have averaged 12% per year since 1945). Now imagine if you don't stop saving at 30. What happens if you keep saving the same amount (or *gasp* increase the amount you save as your salary goes up)? Why then my friend you will most likely be a multimillionare and that isn't even counting if you buy a house or other large appriciating asset.

	14-06-2003 04:55									#9
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Oerdin: Who is that in your avatar?

	14-06-2003 04:57									#10
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That is King Arthur from Monty Python's Holy Grail...... you Philistine.

ACK!

	14-06-2003 05:05									#11
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I want to be rich so I can govern how I live, and not have someone else doing that for me

	14-06-2003 06:39									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Oerdin: Who is that in your avatar?

If you don't knw then I'm not telling you.

Damn foreigners.

	14-06-2003 06:40									#13
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I already told him..... the damn foreigner.



ACK!

	14-06-2003 06:41									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I think us passive capitalists dont see anything INHERENTLY wrong (not regarding implimentation) with capitalism, so allow it, tolerate it, and encourage it.

Active capitalists are the ones who want to be a success, make money for themselves, the usual life of mediocrity stuff, or become trillionares.

	14-06-2003 06:43									#15
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Are you implying there is something inherently immoral about being a multibillionare?

	14-06-2003 06:48									#16
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Ha I found another dictionary!

quote: To associate or have sexual relations with prostitutes or a prostitute. To accept payment in exchange for sexual relations. To compromise one's principles for personal gain.

Assuming they're not making compromising their principles for personal gain then they're not whores.

	14-06-2003 06:49									#17
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No, not at all, although obviously in reality there are problems, but like I said, nothing inherently wrong there imo.

I encourage it, for I see nothing wrong in there that wont be solved relatively soon, my own personal choice is a different matter.

	14-06-2003 06:51									#18
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All capitalists are whores!! This is sig material Oerdin!

	14-06-2003 07:00									#19
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It depends on what you mean by "capitalist".

Some people believe in free markets or a mixed economy with a preponderance towards markets. I don't have any particular beef with these people. I disagree with them, but most of them are good people.

On the other hand, I have a real problem with excessive political power being wielded by corporations, corporate corruption and gunboat diplomacy being used to "open" markets. I also have a problem with the "socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor" that seems to predominate in many countries. You know what I mean - if poor people lose their jobs, that's their tough luck, but if wealthy people start losing money then it's time the law changed or time for subsidies or bailouts.

I actually think capitalism would run much better if a way was found to prevent private power co-opting public government. But in practice that is very hard to do. However, even if that was done it still creates problems.

	14-06-2003 07:12									#20
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Corporate communism?

(Stalinism would be more accurate, see other thread)

	14-06-2003 07:18									#21
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That is true, there is a point where capitalism gets so large and unhindered, it ends up killing itself, like eutrophication in a pond.

As such, I think that capitalism should be stopped when it starts hurting people, like these global megacorps do, which will in effect keep the economies running at optimum.

	14-06-2003 08:17									#22
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"Why Capitalists are Capitalists... "
cause that's where the money is!

	14-06-2003 08:20									#23
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quote: i am sure 90+% of pro-capitalists have no realistic intention of trying to be a multi-millionare...

I guess that makes me part of the 10%. Woo-hoo I'm a minority, where's my money?!

	14-06-2003 09:24									#24
	Re: Why Capitalists are Capitalists... Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer One major reason for capitalism is the idealogical reason derived from Protestantism and the Enlightenment that people should decide their own fate and not have any government (or tyranny of the majority) determining what they will spend their lives doing or what they will do with their money.

This is gibberish Speer.

First of all, capitalism is an economic system, not a political system. Neither is communism. They don't care about how you spend your life or money. If you want to talk about something, please, at least study about it a bit first.

Secondly, if you don't want a government, what you should be is an anarchist, not a capitalist.

Thirdly, self-determination begat democracy.

Forth, the mega-wealth corporations are amassing are made possible by artificial constructs of the society. It's not a natural right. So the government also has the power over how much they are allowed to have, etc. It's both sides of the same coin. You can't have one without the other.

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Even if corporations seem to infringe upon this control of one's one destiny, an individual in a capitalist society can start his own business or enter a different field and continue to control his own fate.

Heard this about a zillion times. This is absolutely untrue. This is at best a Hasty Generalization.

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer This is a very appealing idea shared by everyone from CEO's to street vendors selling t-shirts and oils... Capitalism allows you to chose what you will become. Your field may not be very profitable but profitable fields do exist for you to enter.

This is a myth. The choices of the poor are severely limited due to a host of factors.

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Furthermore, the idea of there being no government dipping into people's pockets is appealing to pro-capitalists... hell, it is appealing to just about every single American. The US was founded by colonists who didn't want to pay taxes and wanted to have self-determination.

I can't believe this. The US was founded mainly by religionists who fled England. The first white settlers in the US IIRC were Puritans who were trying to escape religious persecution.

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer There's also practical reasons for being a capitalist, chief among them is that capitalism has been successful.

How many success cases out of total? How many of those are pure (laissez-faire) capitalism?

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer While Marxist idealogies require a fundamental change in the nature of man, capitalism makes do with imperfect men and works.

What do you know about the nature of man? What is The Nature of Man?

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer The standard of living in capitalist countries has always risen and new technologies and cheaper and better consumer products have always been made.

Speer, the world does not consists only of Europe and North America.

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer There's also the matter of leftist groups harming business and thus harming the livlihood of the people.

Non-sequitur. Please also define what "harming business" entails.

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Nearly every city in the US is proff of this where very influential and usually corrupt unions priced themselves out of work

Unions were a response to abusive conducts of companies you so adore. Read some history, Speer. Sheesh.

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer made cities inhospitable to businesses, taxing them, regulating them, etc. as a result, industry is completely gone from the cities

1. Businesses > industries
2. Why shouldn't societies regulate businesses?
3. There are many reasons why you have no more industries, most of them are related to this capitalism you love so much. Competition, you know.

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer and all that remains are some service jobs (McDonalds, etc.) and some white collar office jobs.

What's wrong with the service sector?

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Had city governments been more capitalistic and had the unions not been so encompassing, business growth would have been significant in the cities and more jobs would have been created.

You have confused industries with businesses. Try again.

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Those are the reasons why capitalists are capitalists... we have no intention of being billionaires... we only want to have an economic system that works and is morally right...

Morally right? Please, lets start with the basic concepts and progress from there, okay?

	14-06-2003 09:32									#25
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I'll simplify the Communist/Capitalist debate:

Communism-failed
Capitalism-suceeded

	14-06-2003 09:40									#26
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Urban:

quote: This is a myth. The choices of the poor are severely limited due to a host of factors.

that's why there's public education, small business loans, college loans, etc...

quote: I can't believe this. The US was founded mainly by religionists who fled England. The first white settlers in the US IIRC were Puritans who were trying to escape religious persecution.

Excuse me? when did Jefferson and Adams and all them try to escape religious persecution? The US was founded in 1776...

quote: How many success cases out of total? How many of those are pure (laissez-faire) capitalism?

Plenty of successes... the few remaining ones that don't seem successful (Taiwan I guess) just need some more time. Looking at America in 1900, one could easily say that capitalism had only resulted in suffering for people but now in 2003, the standard of living has increased greatly.

And **** lasseiz-faire capitalism... it only results in monopolies which is hardly capitalistic...

quote: What do you know about the nature of man? What is The Nature of Man?

As is always said, communism fails because people are greedy... thus, communism requires a change in the nature of people to not be greedy. Capitalism makes do with this flaw and is viable despite imperfect men.

quote: Speer, the world does not consists only of Europe and North America.

Again... time is a factor. give capitalism a generation or two

quote: 3. There are many reasons why you have no more industries, most of them are related to this capitalism you love so much. Competition, you know.

perhaps but high taxes, difficult regulations for businesses to fulfill, etc. did not entice industries to stay in the cities.


thanks

	14-06-2003 09:51									#27
	Re: Re: Why Capitalists are Capitalists... Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I can't believe this. The US was founded mainly by religionists who fled England. The first white settlers in the US IIRC were Puritans who were trying to escape religious persecution.

BS. I can't believe that they even teach that in other countries.

	14-06-2003 09:55									#28
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DinoDoc:

especially since the Jamestown colony (the first English colony in N. America... not plymoth rock or whatever he thinks) was founded by Anglican oppurtunists

	14-06-2003 10:13									#29
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They are capitalists because they were fed propaganda in civivs and economics classes. Communism is shown as Stalinism and Maoism in textbooks, which are PERVERSIONS of true Communism.

	14-06-2003 11:47									#30
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

you're all hypocrites.

all of you socialists would love to be millionaires.

just admit it and we can move to more important issues.