16-06-2003 02:06									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It's your job to show us the forest. Quite frankly, you have done poorly today. Come back when you have an argument that can stand up.

Actually, it's the other way around.

You guys want to impose your system. You have three ways to do it:

superior persuasion by propaganda (the tried and unfortunately not true in any sense method);

superior persuasion by demonstration (guess you'd have to make it work first, failing that, there's just the standard whine about reactionaries and counterrevolutionary elements);

superior persuasion by firepower (probably your best chance, but best get some range time in first and train your targets, er, revolutionaries)

	16-06-2003 02:08									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx MtG....I think it's hopeless. They're right, we're wrong, and "The Man" is out to get us all. Meet you at the bread line later? -=Vel=-

Naah, they'll all be at the bread line *****ing about how unfair life is.

Let's meet at the club and have some good brandy and seegars and plot how to exploit the rabble best, instead.

	16-06-2003 02:09									#183
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Actually, it's the other way around. You guys want to impose your system. You have three ways to do it:

Actually it has more to do with economic realities.

	16-06-2003 02:09									#184
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-=Vel=-

PS: You guys better watch it....there's no telling HOW many ways we'll come up with to exploit the masses....

	16-06-2003 02:11									#185
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Yeah...let's talk about economic realities for a moment.

Let's see now.....where are the capitalist-oriented economies on the "global food chain?"

Oh....taking up all the top spots are they? Hmmm.....

And let's look at communist countries, and see where they are on the "global food chain."

Go on....keep looking.....

THAT is the reality.

-=Vel=-

	16-06-2003 02:12									#186
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You guys will probably be in the bread line too.

	16-06-2003 02:13									#187
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No...actually, I'd start a bakery....sell my bread for a few cents more than you can get it in yonder breadline....now you have a choice. Wait all day to maybe get some stale bread at the breadline, or c'mon over and have a loaf.....

-=Vel=-

	16-06-2003 02:15									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx No...actually, I'd start a bakery....sell my bread for a few cents more than you can get it in yonder breadline....now you have a choice. Wait all day to maybe get some stale bread at the breadline, or c'mon over and have a loaf..... -=Vel=-

Bread will be 1 cent a loaf. This highlights your misunderstanding about how economics works. Why do you think that you will be selling bread and everyone else buying it? Anyone can sell bread because it doesn't require capital investment. The thing is you can't make any money doing it, because of the competition.

	16-06-2003 02:18									#189
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Ummm....if there is a bread line, it's cos there's not enough supply to meet demand.

If I start a bakery, I increase the supply.

Clearly, the demand is there, else there'd not be people standing in line waiting for it.

I can charge whatever the market will bear, and people will pay it (I mean, c'mon....your choices are....stand in line all day, or pony up and pay a little more and get the heck home--on the assumption that you have better stuff to do with your day than standing in line for bread).

See?

-=Vel=-

	16-06-2003 02:19									#190
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Yes, but the supply may be hampered by a lack of grain, in which case you won't be able to start a bakery.

	16-06-2003 02:19									#191
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Then that's my problem, isn't it? And I, as an enterprising young CAPITALIST, will find an alternate supply.

-=Vel=-

	16-06-2003 02:20									#192
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"To this I could add the problems of human alienation*, human spacial organization*, racism*, heterosexism***, agism**, pollution*, overuse of resources*, etc. The world could be managed much more efficiently by direct, democratic oversight, rather than the anarchic "take what you can grab" system we have now. "

*Problems that existed long before "capitalism" or "communism" did.
** A problem caused by Capitalism in the fact that under it people live longer, healthier lives,
*** Huh?

	16-06-2003 02:22									#193
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You see Vel, your main point is a strawman. As I pointed out, it isn't that capitalism is inherently unfair (although that has turned out to be the practice). Capitalism could be managed in such a way as to ensure that only by your merits and nothing else, could you succeed. Then perhaps the world would be ruled by Velociryx's and MtGs {snip}

Another aspect of this is perhaps that we loathe politics, or at least politics to that extent. I could return to the familial stomping grounds, minimally ticket punch at the local level and renew ties with kin, and in the next two or three cycles have a pretty damn good shot at getting elected to Congress. The question is why would I want to?

quote: The point is, capitalism punishes society for being too productive, it wastes capital and labor on unnecessary endevers,

Yes, and Soviet productivity was legendary. Let the state decide what is "unnecessary" - much better than the market.

quote: and it periodically even requires the destruction of societies and the murder of millions of humans to go on.

USSR and PRC, anyone? Oh, but that was in response to reactionaries and counterrevolutionary elements. The biggest difference in your chosen system is that anti-system agitators like you would be off counting trees if they're lucky, dead if not. In this system, we tolerate competing ideas.

quote: In fact, tens of millions are human lives are sacrificed each year on the altar of the market.

Nice rhetoric, but in a world of 6.2 billion people, tens of millions die. Abolishing the market isn't likely to create immortality.

quote: For the rich and powerful, we withhold life saving medicines and subsidize food at prices which drive people out of the market.

Let's pick someplace nice, like Congo, Liberia, Somalia or birthrates in Sub-saharan Africa in general. Do you think giving people free medicine is going to cure everything? Medical care and humanitarian issues in the worst of the third world needs to be addressed, but that isn't market failure primarily. Nice to take an enormously complex problem, and rather than contribute to actively solving it (a la WHO and other organizations), just use their misery as a propaganda tool to blame capitalism.

quote: We overthrow governments that threat the property rights of the rich and powerful.

Like communist and so-called socialists don't, in the guise of "fraternal socialism"

quote: It's not about redistribution of wealth, it's about creating a new set of opportunities for everyone.

And the only solution you advocate for that is state takeover of markets and wealth redistribution. It doesn't matter how you package it.

	16-06-2003 02:22									#194
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As much fun as I'm having here, I've got some calls to make. Gotta phone some friends and see if they'll be willing to be exploited next weekend for the big move....

-=Vel=-

	16-06-2003 02:23									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Actually it has more to do with economic realities.

I thought the term was "historical inevitability"

	16-06-2003 02:24									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Ummm....if there is a bread line, it's cos there's not enough supply to meet demand. If I start a bakery, I increase the supply. Clearly, the demand is there, else there'd not be people standing in line waiting for it. I can charge whatever the market will bear, and people will pay it (I mean, c'mon....your choices are....stand in line all day, or pony up and pay a little more and get the heck home--on the assumption that you have better stuff to do with your day than standing in line for bread). See? -=Vel=-

No. Bread lines are caused by market glut. No one is willing to bring the products to market because the price doesn't justify the the cost of production and delivery.

	16-06-2003 02:24									#197
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"Actually they do. 90% of all wealthy people were born to wealthy families. Bill Gates started out rich. He was able to get IBM to buy an OS from him because his mother sat on a board of directors with the CEO of IBM. The best determinate of results are actually inituil conditions."

Cite? And please, give me a cite from a source that is non-partisan - government sites will do as well (like www.census.gov).

	16-06-2003 02:25									#198
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Ohhhhh....I see.

How silly of me.

To think that all those pictures of starving Russians waiting in the bread lines all day were caused by having TOO MUCH bread.

So much, in fact, that there....wasn't any.

Amazing....

-=Vel=-

	16-06-2003 02:26									#199
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and by the way....that can happen in state run economies where the government mandates the price, rather than letting it be determined by supply and demand.

But....you guys'll never learn, I guess....

-=Vel=-

	16-06-2003 02:28									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Anyone can sell bread because it doesn't require capital investment. The thing is you can't make any money doing it, because of the competition.

I guess the people that make Wonder Bread, etc., forgot about that. When I go to the grocery store (here or in the US) I sure see a hell of a lot of different kinds of bread. I guess they're all going broke though, like that little bakery a few blocks from here that bakes organic breads from amaranth, and just about every other grain and grain combo you like. They're going so broke, there's usually a line at the cash register.

	16-06-2003 02:35									#201
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"I also believe that people with jobs should be paid more than those without them."

As do we.

	16-06-2003 02:37									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Ohhhhh....I see. How silly of me. To think that all those pictures of starving Russians waiting in the bread lines all day were caused by having TOO MUCH bread. So much, in fact, that there....wasn't any. Amazing.... -=Vel=-

You guys are just silly. You know I'm talking about a situation where capitalism has collapsed. That's the context. Don't you guys have an argument instead of just taking text out of context?

	16-06-2003 02:39									#203
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I guess the people that make Wonder Bread, etc., forgot about that. When I go to the grocery store (here or in the US) I sure see a hell of a lot of different kinds of bread. I guess they're all going broke though, like that little bakery a few blocks from here that bakes organic breads from amaranth, and just about every other grain and grain combo you like. They're going so broke, there's usually a line at the cash register.

Creating a company like Wonder Bread requires capital investment. Selling bread on the street only requires a home oven.

	16-06-2003 02:40									#204
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Buying a home oven requires a capital investment. So what's your point?

	16-06-2003 02:41									#205
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If the context is an utter fantasy, why should we treat it more seriously than it deserves.

There is no pending collapse of the capitalist system - the evangelical faithful followers of Reverend Marx have been predicting that one for a century. If there's any of them still around in another hundred years, they'll be citing 250 year old economic theories and talking about the coming collapse of capitalism, which is just around the corner.

	16-06-2003 02:42									#206
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Buying a home oven requires a capital investment. So what's your point?

Not for me. I rent an apartment that comes with it.

Go back in the thread to where Vel was talking about making money during a depression selling bread next to a bread line.

	16-06-2003 02:43									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Creating a company like Wonder Bread requires capital investment. Selling bread on the street only requires a home oven.

Or that nifty little bread-making thingy Lancer got his wife.

That home oven that bakes saleable quantities of bread without ingredients must be pretty nifty, though.

	16-06-2003 02:44									#208
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat If the context is an utter fantasy, why should we treat it more seriously than it deserves. There is no pending collapse of the capitalist system - the evangelical faithful followers of Reverend Marx have been predicting that one for a century. If there's any of them still around in another hundred years, they'll be citing 250 year old economic theories and talking about the coming collapse of capitalism, which is just around the corner.

No one has predicted the the timing of the collapse and ensuing revolution only that there will be one.

	16-06-2003 02:47									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Not for me. I rent an apartment that comes with it. Go back in the thread to where Vel was talking about making money during a depression selling bread next to a bread line.

"Rent" requires capital. Remember? Or do you pay in, say, potato chips?

	16-06-2003 02:50									#210
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT "Rent" requires capital. Remember? Or do you pay in, say, potato chips?

There aren't unfurnished apartments where I live. They all come with ovens.