14-06-2003 23:31									#31
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I would certainly not send two unarmed men, then ignore their cries for help while saying 'we are not responsible'.

	14-06-2003 23:38									#32
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As the UN has been set up, if people get to indeendent, they get shot down. Satets have set up a bunch of rules to happer ad contain the UN becuase they don;t want it to be too independent. In such a climate, no surprise that people decide to svae thier jobs and asses by a strict intepretation of the rules.

quote: Oh, and I assume you're saying the UN is actually doing something about the killings there?

They are not doing much, and with that, they are doing far, far more than any actual individual world government in the entire world. So keep your until you can give any actual other solutions.

I don;t appreciate people who ***** about how someone does a job even though they know they would never do the job themselves if even given the chance.

	14-06-2003 23:39									#33
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The UN needs some serious reform. It's a joke.

	14-06-2003 23:42									#34
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quote: I don;t appreciate people who ***** about how someone does a job even though they know they would never do the job themselves if even given the chance.

Load of crap.

So, you never complain about ****ups of other people who's job you couldn't possibly do?

Let's say that you have a problem with the plumbing, and you get a plumber, and he screws it up. Don't you have a right to criticize him?

	14-06-2003 23:48									#35
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Sorry to do this to you azazel but:



If a specific plumber screws up, I call another one. There is no other UN, no other world organization or individual national satte willing to sne dhite own people under thier own flag (meaing thier responsibility and money) to the Congo.

So all the people hrere *****ing about the UN: well, it leave two things: make comments about how the UN could be changed to address this pormblem and others in peacekeeping, or give a realistic idea of how a problem like the one in Bunia culd be addressed by other orgs or individual national governments.

	14-06-2003 23:51									#36
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quote: Originally posted by GePap make comments about how the UN could be changed to address this pormblem and others in peacekeeping,

How about we consider this rule change to avoid similar situations in the future: When people call you repeatedly begging to be extracted, listen to them. Or is that too simple?

	14-06-2003 23:56									#37
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GePap, please read the entire article:

quote: The U.N. military observers agree. Several were sent in teams of four to other remote parts of Ituri at the same time as Oran and Banda in April. They were urged to go quickly with little preparation, they said. And after they arrived they received little attention from MONUC officials, they said. "After we got there, they forgot us. Nobody told us what we had to do there," said another U.N. military observer. "I didn't even know which group was Hema and which was Lendu." At the time, MONUC needed to have a strong presence in Ituri, said the observers. The Ugandan army, which occupied the province, was leaving in accordance with a multinational peace pact. MONUC was expected to fill the security vacuum. "The U.N. was very pressured to find a solution to the Congo war," said a third U.N. military observer. "They sent observers too soon to a situation where we can't do our work." On May 8, that became clear. With the Ugandans gone, clashes between Hema and Lendu militias had broken out all over the province. Oran and Banda called MONUC's offices in Kisangani asking to be evacuated, said a fourth U.N. military observer. But it was unclear who was responsible for the observers. For the next four days, phone calls were exchanged among Kisangani, Bunia and Kinshasa about getting clearance to evacuate Oran and Banda.

They were supposed to send armed troops -- at least that's how I read "fill the security vacuum". The Ugandans, who had been providing security, had vacated "in accordance with a multinational peace pact", which was probably set up by the UN -- in short, they should have known enough to have armed troops standing by to fill the gap.

Instead, they sent a handful of observers, as sheep among wolves.

	14-06-2003 23:59									#38
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quote: If a specific plumber screws up, I call another one. There is no other UN, no other world organization or individual national satte willing to sne dhite own people under thier own flag (meaing thier responsibility and money) to the Congo. So all the people hrere *****ing about the UN: well, it leave two things: make comments about how the UN could be changed to address this pormblem and others in peacekeeping, or give a realistic idea of how a problem like the one in Bunia culd be addressed by other orgs or individual national governments.

A. So far, the UN mission to Congo has done very little to prevent the mass killings of civilians, so it's not as if they're doing half of the work, they're doing close to nothing.
B. As MtG has said, there was clearly a solution to this particular problem. Also, decisions must be made considering the entire conflict, since this situation is unacceptable.

C.So, if a person is somewhat of a simpleton, he has got no right to criticize his own country's government? or are you suggesting that he'd move out of the country?
Not every criticism and display of dismay must be followed by an articulate plan to solve the problem. Every person can see that obviously something is wrong in this situation, and wants to rectify it. Not everyone can tell how. This thing doesn't change with the number of 'plumbers', solution-providers.

	15-06-2003 00:01									#39
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And why were troopps rushed in? becuase member states wanted to be seen as caring. The UN odes what its members demand. Fault lies with the member, who after ignoring this issue so long now all of a sudden want to seem involved, so they rush tnigs now, after endless delay before.

quote: How about we consider this rule change to avoid similar situations in the future: When people call you repeatedly begging to be extracted, listen to them. Or is that too simple?

With who's plane? Who pays? What about airspace rights? Do rescuers go armed? UNder what rules of engagement?

If things were so simple DD, if they were so simple.

	15-06-2003 00:01									#40
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quote: How about we consider this rule change to avoid similar situations in the future: When people call you repeatedly begging to be extracted, listen to them. Or is that too simple?

how about not sending personel into isolated positions into knowingly hostile territory?

	15-06-2003 00:05									#41
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Sorry Azazel, but I am sick of mindless anti UN trolling (and mindless trolling in general).

quote: Not every criticism and display of dismay must be followed by an articulate plan to solve the problem. Every person can see that obviously something is wrong in this situation, and wants to rectify it. Not everyone can tell how.

This thread went beyond criticism of ther UN, as all ant-UN threads go,, since the point is not to point out mistakes, but to make a point (get rid of the UN..see how bad it is).

	15-06-2003 00:07									#42
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I don;t appreciate people who ***** about how someone does a job even though they know they would never do the job themselves if even given the chance.

Give me the funding, and I'll have those militias out of business in six months tops.

Mad Mike Hoare did a bang-up job of it against the Simbas, Kabila sr. (not that he ever actually showed up in the Congo, he stayed on the other side of the lake in his Mercedes), and the Guevaristas.

Some people *****ed about his methods, and it's too bad we didn't keep a choke-chain on the little f*** of a journalist, but that doesn't really take away from the effectiveness of Mad Mike and his Wild Geese.

	15-06-2003 00:09									#43
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And where did I say I wanted to put an end to the UN?

I just said that I don't want our troops to be under the kind of reckless (yet timid) idiots that comprise the UN command structure.

	15-06-2003 00:10									#44
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quote: Originally posted by GePap With who's plane?

The one they came in.

quote: Who pays?

The people who sent them to such an isolated position in the first place.

quote: What about airspace rights?

They already had airspace rights.

quote: Do rescuers go armed?

No need. They were recieving death threats not under armed assault at the time they were begging to be extracted.

	15-06-2003 00:14									#45
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quote: Originally posted by GePap With who's plane? Who pays? What about airspace rights? Do rescuers go armed? UNder what rules of engagement? If things were so simple DD, if they were so simple.

You're just trying to create an issue where there is none.

(a) The UN managed to insert the two Milobs, presumably it procured funding for extracting them, or else disclosed that this was literally a lifetime assignment.

(b) Helos and air assets were and are available under UN control in Bunia.

(c) The Milobs were threatened and told to get out days before they were killed. One would assume if an unarmed transport helo showed up to extract them, the local militias wouldn't get particularly bent about the Milobs complying with what they'd been told.

(d) Since Col. "I don't feel guilty" is head of a military command, one would assume there are a few weapons lying around, besides the probably never fired after qualification pistol on his belt. There's your armed force if you need support for an extraction.

(e) RoEs are already in place, and firing in self-defence or defense of UN forces is authorized.

If you want to rationalize and excuse cowardice, you'll have to do a better job.

	15-06-2003 00:17									#46
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quote: With who's plane? Who pays? What about airspace rights? Do rescuers go armed? UNder what rules of engagement?

No such problems here. and if no rules of engagment were laid out before the UN mission, than the whole affair is somewhat... disheartening.

quote: Sorry Azazel, but I am sick of mindless anti UN trolling (and mindless trolling in general).

Learn to enjoy it. It's the spice of life.

quote: This thread went beyond criticism of ther UN, as all ant-UN threads go,, since the point is not to point out mistakes, but to make a point (get rid of the UN..see how bad it is).

Look, it's rather simple, actually. UN is not doing it's declared job. therefor, why have it at all? and if it has no will of it's own, again, why have it at all?

Of course, I for a long time have said the the UN is nothing more than a pawn of superpowers. Has it's overall presence been good or bad? I don't know, but I am inclined to the 'good' side.

Is it the paragon of virtue, justice, and generally "the-way-it-should-be"? The answer is no, definetly.

	15-06-2003 00:20									#47
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hi ,

when are people going to realize that the U do Nothing stands for U know Nothing , ......

with all the tools , equipment and money an other drama cant be stopped , ......

then why the heck are nations paying the UN , ......

what do they do , run up expense accounts and have nice diners , .....

have a nice day

	15-06-2003 02:28									#48
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat The UN forces had the ability to extract the two observers. Col. "I don't feel guilty" chose not to, without any valid reason. The only breakdown in command and control was that there was apparently nobody around to override the cowardice of that little chickenchoker. Oh, and I assume you're saying the UN is actually doing something about the killings there?

There was a "reason" MtG :

And under U.N. rules, the ruling Lendu militia had to give permission to land a helicopter in Mongbwalu. It also was unclear which Lendu militia was in charge of the town, he said.


So his soldiers had to wait for clearance from the Lendu chief, and only MONUC headquarters in Kinshasa, the capital, could authorize a rescue operation.


"These are the rules of the United Nations," said Vollot.


I don't get why you'd have to get clearance from Hostiles. Maybe I'm just stupid.

This "I don't feel guilty" guy sure is an *******. The loss of 2 people, who have mentioned they were in danger and unable to defend themselves for FIVE DAYS in absolutely unforgivable.
This colonel should go clean the ground of some French barracks in Polynesia

	15-06-2003 02:33									#49
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Really? REALLY? Assh*le.

He should be shot > !

GOD DAMNIT I AM PISSED OFF AFTER READING THIS!! Cant type how angry I am

	15-06-2003 02:38									#50
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However, we don't send only powerless people there, gladly

From Libération, 14 June 2003

quote: A Bunia, les soldats français rispostent à des tirs 14 juin 13:58:31 Des soldats français mandatés par l'Onu pour mettre fin à des affrontements interethniques en République démocratique du Congo tiennent leurs positions près de Bunia. © REUTERS par Dino Mahtani BUNIA, Congo démocratique (Reuters) - Des soldats français déployés à Bunia pour mettre fin aux affrontements interethniques qui ensanglantent cette ville du nord-est de l'ex-Zaïre ont, selon des témoins, ouvert le feu pour la première fois samedi après avoir été attaqués en périphérie. Dissimulés par la végétation, des assaillants avaient pris pour cible, au mortier et à la mitrailleuse, un convoi des forces françaises qui circulait hors des faubourgs sud-est de la ville, théâtre depuis un mois de combats qui ont fait des centaines de morts et des milliers de déplacés en République démocratique du Congo. On ignore si cet échange de tirs a fait des victimes. "Les Français sont attaqués, personne ne sait par qui", a déclaré un officier français à un journaliste de Reuters qui se déplaçait en convoi à la lisière de la ville. "Nous avons été pris sous le feu intense de mitrailleuses et de mortiers." "Nous avons riposté à la mitrailleuse et avec des grenades", a-t-il poursuivi, précisant que l'attaque s'était produite dans une zone située à trois kilomètres du centre-ville. Le journaliste de Reuters a fait état de 10 tirs de mortier au moins avant que des avions de chasse français ne survolent la zone. Le convoi, à bord duquel se trouvaient 70 hommes environ, était formé de 15 véhicules tout-terrain et d'un blindé. Vendredi, les forces françaises, fer de lance d'une force européenne mandatée par l'Onu avaient déployé hommes et véhicules dans les rues de Bunia pour y protéger les civils. Les combats entre miliciens des tribus Hema et Lendu sèment le chaos depuis le début du mois de mai à Bunia et dans ses environs. Des centaines d'habitants ont été massacrés et des dizaines de milliers d'autres ont déserté leurs foyers. L'UPC LOUE LA RIPOSTE FRANCAISE La milice Hema, qui contrôle la ville, a attribué les tirs du jour à ses rivaux Lendu. "Nous félicitons la force internationale pour la rapide riposte d'aujourd'hui; ces agresseurs attendent toujours l'occasion de reprendre la ville", a déclaré Saba Rafiki, responsable de la sécurité au sein de l'Union patriotique congolaise (UPC), milice Hema soutenue par le Rwanda, qui s'est emparée de Bunia le 12 mai. "Mais les Français sont venus à notre secours et nous continuons quant à nous à poursuivre les agresseurs", a-t-il ajouté. Aucun représentant de la milice Lendu n'a pu être contacté. Quelque 400 soldats français sont arrivés durant la semaine à Bunia. Ils forment l'avant-garde d'un contingent international qui doit totaliser 1.400 hommes et pourra faire usage de la force en cas de nécessité. Ces militaires ont cependant pour seule mission de protéger la ville, son aérodrome et deux camps de réfugiés installés à proximité. Si Paris fournit l'essentiel de ce contingent - première force européenne engagée hors du continent -, la Grande-Bretagne doit également dépêcher une centaine d'hommes et le gouvernement allemand a approuvé vendredi l'envoi de 350 militaires qui seront basés en Ouganda voisin. Le Canada et l'Afrique du Sud devraient également contribuer à cette mission, que l'UE a baptisé "Artémis" et dont les effectifs seront au complet à la mi-juillet. Une mission de l'Onu était déjà déployée en RDC, mais elle n'est pas habilitée à s'opposer à des combats. La force sous commandement français ne doit rester sur place que jusqu'au 1er septembre.

I don't feel like translating it all, but it says that a French convoy has been ambushed today 3 km away from Bunia's city centre. The attackers had mortars and machineguns, and the French opposed with grenades and machineguns. 10 mortar shots have been fired, according to local journalists.

The French have sent the biggest amount of soldiers in this EU operation (the first of its kind, being outside of EU borders) under UN mandate, with 400 men. The Germans are to send 350, and the British about 100. Canada and South Africa should take part in. The role of this EU mission is however only to protect Bunia + its airfield + 2 refugee camps.

The regular UN mission, already present for some time, cannot oppose the fightings in the area.

The Hema militia in control of Bunia has saluted the French reaction to the ambush, and says that the French are on their side. They also say their Lendu rivals are the culprits of the attack. No Lendu official could have been joined.

	15-06-2003 02:44									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor There was a "reason" MtG : And under U.N. rules, the ruling Lendu militia had to give permission to land a helicopter in Mongbwalu. It also was unclear which Lendu militia was in charge of the town, he said. So his soldiers had to wait for clearance from the Lendu chief, and only MONUC headquarters in Kinshasa, the capital, could authorize a rescue operation. "These are the rules of the United Nations," said Vollot.

An officer with balls would simply go get them out, then tell his "superiors" that if they wanted to relieve him of command, that was their choice.

quote: I don't get why you'd have to get clearance from Hostiles. Maybe I'm just stupid.

No, you're just not a UN bureaucrat afraid to offend anyone. Besides, when did these Lendu *******s become internationally recognized "rulers" of anything.

quote: This "I don't feel guilty" guy sure is an *******. The loss of 2 people, who have mentioned they were in danger and unable to defend themselves for FIVE DAYS in absolutely unforgivable. This colonel should go clean the ground of some French barracks in Polynesia

With his tongue, and latrines, not barracks, although Polynesia doesn't sound like hardship duty. Got any permanent bases in Africa? After he's done with spit-polishing latrines, bring him back for UN duty as an unarmed Milobs and hang him out to dry with the same ****ing "rules" he was so fond of hiding behind.

	15-06-2003 04:52									#52
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God damn.

And you want these c*ck suckers to be put to oversee the security of the Israeli Palestinian borders???

...

At least they will be easy enough to kill once hell breaks loose.


God damn sh*t-head UN mother-f***ers.

	15-06-2003 04:57									#53
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You know, while I'm generally favourable of the DP only for mass murderors and intentional murderors, and I think this is something along the lines of Killing, but since it was done by such a high ranking colonel, he really should pay a heavy price as an example. The same that the two people depending on him for their life did.

	15-06-2003 05:12									#54
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The problem is the yellow SOB realizes he's exempt, for hiding behind his "legal" orders. Thats' why I said I hope somebody in his command doesn't "feel guilty" about fragging him. That's the only kind of justice he's likely to receive.

In the normal national military bureaucracy, about the only thing you can do with *******s like that is make sure they never get promoted, and put them in the worst postings you can, but in this case, it's not near enough.

	15-06-2003 05:24									#55
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I think that once in such a position, him following orders becomes what in IDF is called, following a clearly illegal order. It is prosecuted by law.

It would be one thing if he were ordered to leave them there.

But his obvious and intentional inaction in the light of their apparent faith, and that coupled with no possible logical or strategical reason to avoid their rescue - is surely a criminal action.

	15-06-2003 05:53									#56
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Wasn't their something in the article about the UN having to obtain the permission of local tribal leaders in order to move anyone within the tribal area? Perhaps the problem is that UN forces are woefully out-numbered for their mission, and that aggravating local tribal leaders would only invite a much larger massacre. Maybe the problem is that mission to Africa tend to be under-supported. You give these people nothing to work with, then you criticize them for accomplishing nothing! Perhaps if the peacekeeping mission to Congo was supported with even one-quarter of the efforrt devoted to either of the last two Gulf wars the whole conflict would be rapidly quashed and some serious relief to the monumental suffering of the Congolese could begin. But let's face it, that's not going to happen because the people doing the suffering are, well, you know......................... Oh, come now, you no what I'm talking about.................................................Come on, let's just say it..............................................They're..................................... francophones

	15-06-2003 07:10									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov I think that once in such a position, him following orders becomes what in IDF is called, following a clearly illegal order. It is prosecuted by law. It would be one thing if he were ordered to leave them there. But his obvious and intentional inaction in the light of their apparent faith, and that coupled with no possible logical or strategical reason to avoid their rescue - is surely a criminal action.

"Illegal" orders are generally positive orders to do something that is a violation of the laws and customs of war, or some express obligation under international law.

If he had standing orders from his lawfully appointed superiors (he did), then all he can/has to do is ask those superiors to get the ball rolling. If they **** around with it until it's too late, he skates, and so does the UN mission "we had to have those *******s' permission"

That's a structural problem with the UN peacekeeping setup, which is why I prefer the Mad Mike Hoare sort of solution, but then getting "invited" to give that kind of performance is a bit tougher.

	15-06-2003 07:34									#58
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat The problem is the yellow SOB realizes he's exempt, for hiding behind his "legal" orders. Thats' why I said I hope somebody in his command doesn't "feel guilty" about fragging him. That's the only kind of justice he's likely to receive. In the normal national military bureaucracy, about the only thing you can do with *******s like that is make sure they never get promoted, and put them in the worst postings you can, but in this case, it's not near enough.

Well put.

	15-06-2003 08:51									#59
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My Goodness...if you read that article closely they're saying that the UN needed permission from the Lendu to land...

...the UN needed permission, from the people who where attacking and eating the UN at the time....

WTF??

That has to be the most pathetic Rwanda type excuse ever. It's like 'sure, you can land. Just wait another hour. And....send more fat Jordanians...(burp)'

It would be like the US having to ask permission to land behind the VC...."You can land as soon as we've finished killing your buddies here"

And the chopper pilots...their JOB is to extract mil and civilians from a hostile war zone. What did they expect, picking daisies?! 'We were afraid so we let them die?'

I really hope that wasn't the case and it was just Vollot trying to spread the blame.

When the enemy attacks, it's tragic because people get killed.
When you let your own people die pointlessly because of some already violated rule, that's just total insanity.

	15-06-2003 08:57									#60
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**** the UN