15-06-2003 09:06									#61
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Didn't see the last part

	15-06-2003 22:27									#62
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quote: Originally posted by GePap If things were so simple.

Thing are a lot simpler to personnel who have the least bit of practical (part of definition: not in the UN) experience and tiny bit of resposibility. I, a private citizen in Texas, could have had them out of them, within 4 days starting from scratch, had I be in anyway resposible to do so. The only resources necessary are a little bit of money and some focus. When you get a call like that you trash the bureacratic rules and get the job done, taking what lumps you have to later. It is obvious that the UN does not attract personnell with miiminal capibility. Any one of dozens of tiny local goverments in my area could consistantly do better. The UN is garbage because its people, up and down (more so up) the line, are garbage.

	15-06-2003 22:42									#63
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quote: ...the UN needed permission, from the people who where attacking and eating the UN at the time.... WTF??

I think this summarizes this thread rather nicely.

	15-06-2003 22:59									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor However, we don't send only powerless people there, gladly I don't feel like translating it all, but it says that a French convoy has been ambushed today 3 km away from Bunia's city centre. The attackers had mortars and machineguns, and the French opposed with grenades and machineguns. 10 mortar shots have been fired, according to local journalists. The French have sent the biggest amount of soldiers in this EU operation (the first of its kind, being outside of EU borders) under UN mandate, with 400 men. The Germans are to send 350, and the British about 100. Canada and South Africa should take part in. The role of this EU mission is however only to protect Bunia + its airfield + 2 refugee camps. The regular UN mission, already present for some time, cannot oppose the fightings in the area. The Hema militia in control of Bunia has saluted the French reaction to the ambush, and says that the French are on their side. They also say their Lendu rivals are the culprits of the attack. No Lendu official could have been joined.

hi ,

dont forget the 68 belgians and 210 americans , ....

the french shall also move a two companies of the legion of congo brazzaville to the area , ....

have a nice day

	15-06-2003 23:05									#65
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Strange behaviour. I don't mean the non-existent pullout flight, or the decision of Col Vomit or whatever his name is.

I mean the decision to send them in unarmed. What sort of a message does that send out?

"We're peacekeepers. If you break the peace we'll... shout at you until you stop."

SHOOT at you until you stop, bang on.

I don't think blaming the UN as a whole is right thing to do - that's like blaming Rumsfeld personally for every friendly fire incident in the last 18 months.

	15-06-2003 23:10									#66
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My cousin did two tours in bosnia, teaching police methods, once under UN and once under NATO. Night and day he says. He thought UN *******s in charge were the among the worst, laziest, dumbest, and most corrupt & dishonest scum that he had ever had to deal with in 25 years various federal, international and local goverment service, (including such wonderful personnel you get to meet when you are in internal affairs in a sherrif's office).

	15-06-2003 23:15									#67
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If I'm not particularly keen on the UN because it isn't complying with what it was supposed to do, but I am amazed that no one yet has pointed the finger at the inhuman barbarism of those who commited these murders against unarmed UN peacekeepers.

	15-06-2003 23:17									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov God damn. And you want these c*ck suckers to be put to oversee the security of the Israeli Palestinian borders??? ... At least they will be easy enough to kill once hell breaks loose. God damn sh*t-head UN mother-f***ers.

hi ,

not to mention that sometimes they even take sides that are against the mandate they have , look at kosovo , vukovar , sarajevo , mostar , libanon , our border with syria ( want pics of them sitting n the sun and doing nothing and letting people wait for hours in the sun ) , .....

after 1945 they have told the world "never again" , combodia , katanga , rwanda , yougoslavia , somalia , etc , .....

the un troops are just a big expensive do nothing joke that actually is reponsible for the deaths of countless people thanks to the passive way , and the way they look on to problems that happend right under the nose of the un troops while they dont act , .....

one of the reason Israel does not employ UN troops and the fact why our operation in Goma was done completely on our own without and help or efford from the un who from the start was even against it and they still critisize us for today , ....

have a nice day

	15-06-2003 23:24									#69
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What happened in that UN case a couple years ago in the area (Camafoon, IIRC) where a UN bureaucrat arranged the murder of his superior so he could get his position?

	16-06-2003 01:04									#70
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There really is no excuse for this sort of thing.

That does not mean, however, that I think the UN should be trashed. To me, it's one of the best chances we've got going for some sort of... global progress. It just needs fine tuning; allow more disciplinary measures to be taken on internal matters (such as this), and cut the fat of the bureaucracy. Now... is that possible? Optimistically, I have to say 'yes'.

	19-06-2003 02:38									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola Thing are a lot simpler to personnel who have the least bit of practical (part of definition: not in the UN) experience and tiny bit of resposibility. I, a private citizen in Texas, could have had them out of them, within 4 days starting from scratch, had I be in anyway resposible to do so. The only resources necessary are a little bit of money and some focus. When you get a call like that you trash the bureacratic rules and get the job done, taking what lumps you have to later. It is obvious that the UN does not attract personnell with miiminal capibility. Any one of dozens of tiny local goverments in my area could consistantly do better. The UN is garbage because its people, up and down (more so up) the line, are garbage.

A lot of people would be surprised by how often we have people on the ground before crisises or even for crises that never bloom into crises. They go in with a checkbook and some willingness to adapt/overcome and get the initial intel, etc. This is all run out of EUCOM (CAT teams).

You can get a lot done with a checkbook and some willingness to just mess around.

	19-06-2003 02:42									#72
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I agree that it is silly to consider disbanding (or NOT disbanding) the Un based on this fiasco. But it is germane to ask questiosn about wether the UN should be doing peacekeeping and if so, how.

	19-06-2003 03:00									#73
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quote: Originally posted by GP I agree that it is silly to consider disbanding (or NOT disbanding) the Un based on this fiasco. But it is germane to ask questiosn about wether the UN should be doing peacekeeping and if so, how.

hi ,

, lets take a look now at the UN and the last 30 years , .....

lets see , there was cambodia , america's backdoor garden , a couple of small scale things in africa , then yugoslavia came , complete disaster , somalia , rwanda , zaire , etc , .......

what killing of people have they prevented , .....

have a nice day

	19-06-2003 03:11									#74
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And another great example why I don't want to go peacekeeping to some remote country. This is just many of the stories I have heard. I have also one friend who has served in peacekeepers, and he had some words about it too. It is not the fault of the soldiers, it is the fault of the system.

'I like to travel to foreign countries, meet people, different cultures, and then get butchered by them'.

F that. You need to have a gun, observer or not. The area was controlled by militia. What the hell do they observe there? At least they were doing their jobs, asking for immidiate evacuation, as they observed the situation. I guess they were right after all!
When oh when do they get it, that militias and other armed baddies do not fear your blue barret? When do they understand, that they understand big guns that kill, and not babbling guys? And wtf, where these guys in their post alone? Uh oh.. and they called for help several times.. makes me angry. Superiors just broke their trust, and I bet they broke the trust of many other soldiers too, which is the most important thing. You need to be able to trust! And this guy doesn't even feel guilty? I don't know how he sleeps at night. I bet it would have been a serious brake of rules to send a chopper to get them back. Even if it means your position is in danger, you still should do it.. to get your own men back. This is so discusting I can't believe my own ears.

If baddies come to your post, you unarmed, them wanting to kill you, what are you supposed to do? Start doing crazy kung fu? What a joke. After this incident, I bet the militias really respect the UN troops, as they are bad asses with superior rules of engagement.

I bet nothing gets to be done, they don't even get the guilty ones. They don't even strike back at the militia. Maybe the want to negotiate peace or something. What a bunch of bull. They need to get those target hats off, get down there and shoot every single one who is in the militia. That could work for the whole situation, no militia to oppress people. It won't happen though.
They should order some equipment from Punisher Weapon Systems . I can come down and train the troops how to use them.