15-06-2003 07:01									#1
	Science ministry 725bc Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Dear fellow citizens.

The hutgods have finaly given us Monarchy

We still have a lot to do though if we are going to establish a decent siencerate

I therefore would like to ask the Minister for City Planning for a sience city as marked below



When this hits size 3 it will produce 11-12 trade, witch at this rate would add about 50% to our current beakerproduction. A library would give us even more

We have a chance of getting Poly out of a hut in the next session so we have to decide about the next tech:

Mys, will double the effect of our temples we we can add 1 pop to our city's. Making improvements more cost effective
Mys will also give us the option to research Phyl and instant Mono

Math, will give the army vet cats witch wil kill anything that moves but are quite slow on the offence

Feud, We get good defenders and it leads to knights but if it gets stolen it will slow us down considerably.

Engineering, will lead to Invention, Demo and Gunpowder.

	15-06-2003 07:13									#2
	Our science: Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

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	15-06-2003 09:07									#3
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I like the idea of the science city, and that looks for a good location for it to me, though I don't care for the Jungle it needs to be build on, in order to get those specials, I guess it is unavoidable (and we can change it as soon as we get the chance). This location makes sense for our overall Empire, as it makes it easier to connect Pax Apolyton to Enron/Glorificus.

As for the next tech, with our Science rate being what it is, I am not sure it matters what we research, but of those currectly available, I think Mysticism makes the most sense, though in the 39+ turns it could take us to get it I may have changed my mind.

Any chance of also getting a screen shot of the Trade Minister? (Indicating number of beakers per city, and also the total beakers produced?) I am also curious about the Tax rates. Has our esteemed President changed the tax rates without informing the citizens? I beleive we have a right to know where our tax dollars are going And if he hasn't changed the tax rates, why not. There are two certainities in life, death and taxes. (Japanese and Greek death ), and our tax rates, which our government produces little with in the way of Science, little in the way of Economic growth, and zip in sorely needed Luxuries for our well deserving citizens.

btw, tongue firmly in cheek :P for most of this propaganda

	15-06-2003 10:28									#4
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I'd like to hear from the MoD before chosing a tech to begin researching next.

I like the spot for the science city but only wish to add that we should clear the junlge first so that the city grows at a decent rate and we can still use the junlge special

	15-06-2003 10:37									#5
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But wouldn't it make more sense to get the city put down as soon as possible, and at least get it started growing, and then change the jungle after the city is built?

Waiting to change the Jungle into more usable terrain will take 15 turns with one settler, and 7-8 with 2 I think. By that time the city could be making use of at least one of the specials, and hopefully more then one.

I think that 39+ turns for discovering a new tech is a problem we need to address now, and the solution that the Science Minister proposes is a good one in my opinion.

	15-06-2003 11:14									#6
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quote: I therefore would like to ask the Minister for City Planning for a science city as marked below.

Duly noted.

Pro:

On route to Enron and Glorificus
Three specials,
Massive growth in Trade/science.

Con:
Fershinglugger swamp terrain for the city site.
Possible corruption due to city distance from capital.

Normally the corruption is not a worry, but with a non-capital SSC, huge trade will lead to corruption, even under a monarchy.

I agree with the construction of a SSC, now that Monarchy allows for decent tax collection, and trade development.

Also, to boost trade, we can build some libraries on the cities with rivers and trade specials, specifically Enron and Glorificus.

Libraries will have to come after temples, a very effective citybuild at this point, easing support payments and improving our approval rating (44%)

Sounds like fodder for a poll.

	15-06-2003 14:33									#7
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The corruption nio that proposed city wont be that bad, its close to our cap and it only takes another 2 new roads to connect them.

Irigating the swamp will take a while but sinze we got an oasis and spice in the cityradius it will still grow duriing that time

	15-06-2003 16:04									#8
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What about a hidden special?

	15-06-2003 20:38									#9
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I don't think Mathematics (Catapaults) will help us much in this game. It would take them forever to go anywhere on this large map. We're better off going for the more mobile offensive units like Knights and Crusaders.

The idea of a science city is a good one. I just wish there was a better location for one. Still, the suggested spot does have good specials for that, and there are 3 gold/grass squares for regular growth.

	15-06-2003 21:26									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Sparrowhawk Any chance of also getting a screen shot of the Trade Minister? (Indicating number of beakers per city, and also the total beakers produced?) I am also curious about the Tax rates. Has our esteemed President changed the tax rates without informing the citizens? I beleive we have a right to know where our tax dollars are going And if he hasn't changed the tax rates, why not.

The Tax Rate and the Trade screenshots have been added to the Tale of the Years thread for your perusal. I did indeed raise our Science Rate to 70% upon acheiving Monarchy, since that was what we were maximizing under Despotism. However, since we just acheived Monarchy this turn, the change has had no effect yet and can easily be adjusted at the recommendation of the Ministers.

	15-06-2003 21:48									#11
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Why not build a science city somewhere else? We have a ton of grassland around; some of those squares have hidden specials (has anyone checked the pattern?)

The concern I have with the proposed location is that it'll take forever to grow the city to a decent size (due to the bad terrain) unless we commit a lot of Settlers to terrain improvement.

	16-06-2003 00:08									#12
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Clear jungle. Then build science city.

	16-06-2003 00:18									#13
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That would take forever with Settlers. But I agree that some improvements should be made first. Let the Settler between Imperialis and Pax road the path to the new site and road the gold/grass before establishing the city...

	16-06-2003 03:31									#14
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how big will this city grow without the use of happy wonders and trade routes ?

	16-06-2003 06:40									#15
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Size 5 easy, but even if it stays size 3 we get a lot of trade from the spice+gold.

	16-06-2003 06:57									#16
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I think how much we will grow our cities may depend more on our luxury rate when we get to that point. Without trade routes or happiness wonders we will need luxuries to keep our cities happy (as they grow to significant sizes). Might be interesting to figure out though, how big can we get with Temples, Cathedrals and Colleseums? (plus using luxuries with Marketplaces, Banks and Stock Markets)

Either way, I think it makes the most sense to get the city built ASAP and change the jungle after the city is built. While building roads also sounds good, I would prefer to do this with another settler, is there another one near this location?

	16-06-2003 09:11									#17
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Sounds like a damned good idea to me to build the city. As for what we should research, since we can't build wonders, I think the goal of Philosophy (if it seems like we can get it first) will be good. If we can't, then go straight for Gunpowder.

	16-06-2003 11:25									#18
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Has any one toggled with the science rate to see if our lethargic wise men can improve their productivity under a new leadership regime (being monarchy)?

	16-06-2003 18:46									#19
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Majestica, Imperialis, and Pax apolyton all have hidden specials if i am not mistaken.Pax apolyton and Imperialis would be silk if turned to forrest, wouldn't that be faster than trying to transform jungle into grassland, then founding a dity and waiting for it to grow to size three? the city's are allready large enough, and while the gold and spice would be nice, maybe we should make the most of what we have now.

After checking I found that it will be phesant near majestica, not silk. And to clarify, i think the idea and the city site good choices, but i would like to see the city's we have now improved ASAP.

Last edited by Zedd on 16-06-2003 at 19:26

	16-06-2003 22:08									#20
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quote: (being monarchy)?

Atomant:

Question already answered, science has been maximised at 70%.

The only time we would not want to maximise science is when we are trying to celebrate to grow cities.

Silk specials? Excellent. We can use those.
As for improving our cities, that will come once we have a road connecting our cities. Roads need to come first since roads allow us to combine production much more efficiently.

quote: think the goal of Philosophy (if it seems like we can get it first) will be good. If we can't, then go straight for Gunpowder.

What about Monotheism? Crusaders punish Phalanx defenses.

	17-06-2003 02:36									#21
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I agree, we are on the offensive, let us take the route to mono instead of providing our enemy's with pike's or musks.

We should be able to take out half the world before they even get feud

	17-06-2003 09:21									#22
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quote: 775 BC – Pop hut, Mathematics. Pop hut, Trade. Pop hut, MONARCHY!!!!!!!!

Though we were all understandably excited by the discovery of Monarchy , I would hope that our Science Minister would observe that we already have Mathematics, therefore it was not necessary to include it in the poll.

Or perhaps was it included deliberately? Is the Science Minister attempting to deceive the people into choosing what he desires by including choices that we cannot possibly choose as we have already discovered them? Perhaps our esteemed science minister has goals which will take him to greater heights?

While our President may well be taken in by your deceptive actions, we the citizens will be keeping a close eye upon your actions!

Sparrowhawk
Citizen

	17-06-2003 15:58									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Sparrowhawk Though we were all understandably excited by the discovery of Monarchy , I would hope that our Science Minister would observe that we already have Mathematics, therefore it was not necessary to include it in the poll.

quote: Or perhaps was it included deliberately? Is the Science Minister attempting to deceive the people into choosing what he desires by including choices that we cannot possibly choose as we have already discovered them? Perhaps our esteemed science minister has goals which will take him to greater heights?

I wouldnt even have thought of this

quote: While our President may well be taken in by your deceptive actions, we the citizens will be keeping a close eye upon your actions! Sparrowhawk Citizen

Good, the gouverment needs to be checked by the citizens or we'll just take all of Hydeys Amazonian woman and sail off into the sunset.

Btw, why dont you run for office next term?

	17-06-2003 23:04									#24
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On-topic :

quote: Originally posted by atawa Btw, why dont you run for office next term?

Hmm, I see you are trying to deflect the attention by transfering it to me. It won't work, I am on to your deception. You can't fool me into taking a role within this government.

Off-topic:

Seriously, I look forward to the day when I can take a more active role in this game, even if only for one term, but I am still trying to figure out some of the game dynamics, and not ready to take on a government position.

When I first found out about "Democracy Games" I didn't get the concept, and thought it seemed ridiculous, to have one player playing the game, and all others giving advice, didn't sound much fun to me. I gave it a second look though, and have found this to be quickly addictive. I hope to continue to follow the game as a citizen, and give my opinions (whether wanted or not), and see where it goes from there.

I actually have to laugh, I try to explain Civ to my girlfriend, and she doesn't get the game concept to begin with, but I don't really play much MP, and only am in one PBEM. After I added my name to the list for this game, I told her "Now I am not only in one game that I play my turn in about an hour, and wait for the turn to come back to me to play, and I complain about how long it takes to come back (sometimes a month). I just joined up a game where I don't have to wait for my turn, cause I don't get one." She just looked at me and shook her head, I think accepting that she doesn't get it and never will. Funny part is, I am not sure what I like about the "Democracy" concept, perhaps making an individual game into a team game.