16-06-2003 07:42									#31
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Imran:

in all honesty, i want alcohol and tobacco criminalized too... the only thing is that America has grown rich off the two and it would be harmful to the economy if we stopped producing them... especially tobacco because if we stopped making tobacco then the hundreds of millions of smokers in the world will have to look to countries like Cuba and Venezuela which would become ridiculous rich as the sole suppliers of tobacco.

so those two need to stay legalized for now at least.


thanks

	16-06-2003 07:44									#32
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Why don't we let the people choose what is good for them and what isn't?

A true capitalist would want everything legalized .

	16-06-2003 07:46									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Why don't we let the people choose what is good for them and what isn't? A true capitalist would want everything legalized .

That's libertarian (or even anarchist) but not capitalist.

	16-06-2003 07:47									#34
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quote: Why don't we let the people choose what is good for them and what isn't?

Not until the education system works good and children got parents and communities...

quote: A true capitalist would want everything legalized

I'm not that much of a capitalist and you know it.


thanks

	16-06-2003 07:54									#35
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Need I remind you of the prohibition era?

Now apply the same thing to marijuana.

	16-06-2003 07:59									#36
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looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on that, albert.

although i agree that users probably don't have a good reason to take drugs, there are plenty of intelligent people who end up in the drug spiral because they were so desperate for an escape that they latched onto anything.

i also agree that while demand will always be a problem, years of the war on drugs has neither truly lowered demand nor choked off supply; education has lowered rates, but the supply is still there.
the way i figure it, if we come down much harder on the supply end of it while continuing educational efforts, we might be able to reduce it far more than we have in the past.

so.

	16-06-2003 07:59									#37
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Skanky:

bad analogy... in 1919, alcohol was very wide-spread and very popularily used... far more than weed is even if plenty of people smoke today... it also had a long history (thousands of years ) of legalization and a sudden criminalization (especially as most americans found nothing wrong with alcohol) only caused problems...

weed on the other hand is generally considered to be bad, even among weed smokers. it also has been illegal in the US for decades and illegal (or impossible to get) for hundreds of years before that (it is not allowed in Islam, for example)


thanks

	16-06-2003 08:01									#38
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criminalize alcohol, on the other hand... i like some beer, wine, and soju. social drinking isn't bad. it's people who get drunk that i dislike.

but to make alchol blanketly illegal? it ddn't work before.

	16-06-2003 08:02									#39
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Q Cubed:

no... release dealers and give them college courses and job training so they won't become dealers... get rid of the supply and there'll be no demand... was there a demand for crack in the 50's and 60's? no... the emergence of dealers in the 70's and 80's caused demand to sky-rocket

	16-06-2003 08:07									#40
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so what it boils down to is that we both want to eliminate supply, just with different means? makes sense.

	16-06-2003 08:09									#41
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Q Cubed:

yeah but i also want the demand to be beaten down and locked in jail... drug users are not the demand-side of drug economics when they're in jail (though actually there is a drug trade in most jails but still...)


thanks

	16-06-2003 08:11									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Skanky: bad analogy... in 1919, alcohol was very wide-spread and very popularily used... far more than weed is even if plenty of people smoke today... it also had a long history (thousands of years ) of legalization and a sudden criminalization (especially as most americans found nothing wrong with alcohol) only caused problems... weed on the other hand is generally considered to be bad, even among weed smokers. it also has been illegal in the US for decades and illegal (or impossible to get) for hundreds of years before that (it is not allowed in Islam, for example) thanks

Marijuana is also widespread.
Marijuana has also been used for a long time throughout history.
Many people I know equate marijuana on the same level of "badness" as alcohol.

I'm not seeing much difference here.

	16-06-2003 08:14									#43
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Weed is wide-spread but no where near the level alcohol was in 1919...

Weed has not been used as frequently as alcohol. it didn't exist in europe or america until relatively recently and it was banned in the Islamic world...

	16-06-2003 09:09									#44
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cannibis is for pussies

	16-06-2003 09:17									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker cannibis is for pussies

Spoken like a true crackhead (or maybe just a cracker)

	16-06-2003 11:10									#46
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"but still, if weed is legalized, who would produce it? Philip Morris? they could easily get into the weed game and drive out the competition and they don't exactly got a good track record with their smoke-able products..."

Considering the fact that the status of the greenhouse marijuana maker is iconic now, I'm sure there'd be plenty of local hippies (phish listeners) to take on that arduous task.

	16-06-2003 11:45									#47
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Speer -

quote: even a religious Christian like Black Dragon is in favour of legalization! this is ridiculous...

Yeah, can't all these people who call themselve's "Christians" practice some christianity for a change and break into all our homes and cart the few million with marijuana off to cages? I know the Bible verse from Jesus well, "Thou shall wander the countryside abducting and caging users of the devil weed...oh...and by the way...you'll have to steal the money to pay for this wonderful service to the world".

	16-06-2003 11:51									#48
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marijuana is not that harmless as many people want to believe. otoh cannabis can be usefuel as a medicament. the current restrictions are silly. chemistīs shops - but no one else - should be allowed to sell it.
legalize it and put a high tax on it and get it away from the black market that way.

	16-06-2003 11:59									#49
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Speer -

quote: Weed has not been used as frequently as alcohol. it didn't exist in europe or america until relatively recently and it was banned in the Islamic world...

Europeans have been using hemp/cannibis for at least 600 years to produce sails, etc...and probably the Romans before them... Alcohol was probably "invented" in the process to protect against water poisoning, so how often they are used is kind of irrelevant unless you believe in democracy. And Islamic law isn't the same everywhere in the Islamic world. What is law in Saudi Arabia may not be law in the Sudan.

	16-06-2003 12:02									#50
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quote: put a high tax on it and get it away from the black market that way.

High taxes will keep much of the black market in place.

	16-06-2003 12:11									#51
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nope, marijuana in itself is cheap. you can put 300% taxes and itīs still cheaper than on the blackmarket.

	16-06-2003 14:04									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer bad analogy... in 1919, alcohol was very wide-spread and very popularily used... far more than weed is even if plenty of people smoke today... it also had a long history (thousands of years ) of legalization and a sudden criminalization (especially as most americans found nothing wrong with alcohol) only caused problems...

It is a matter of scale instead of kind. In fact, all the problems with drugs stem from criminalisation. Why do you think the druglords are making so much money now? Same reason why the Mafia made a killing during the Prohibition. If all drugs are legalised and regulated, with $$$ going into education and preventive measures, drug-related crimes will largely vanish.

	16-06-2003 14:20									#53
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quote: nope, marijuana in itself is cheap. you can put 300% taxes and itīs still cheaper than on the blackmarket.

And buying or selling it with no tax is cheaper than with a %300 tax. Make the taxes higher and you increase the incentive to bypass the taxes...we're already seeing this with higher taxes on tobacco...

	16-06-2003 15:32									#54
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quote: And buying or selling it with no tax is cheaper than with a %300 tax. Make the taxes higher and you increase the incentive to bypass the taxes...we're already seeing this with higher taxes on tobacco...

but I guess you see the point. I agree that legal marijuana shouldnīt be much more expensive than black market marijuana, else too many people would still buy at the local drug dealer.

from the marijuana planter through the smuggler to the final drug dealer there are many people who want to make profit. from station to station pot becomes more expensive until it reaches a ridiculous price for the consumer. even a high tax couldnīt compete with this increase. but I donīt want to arge about numbers.
I also guess most consumers would prefer legal canabis even if it was slightly more expensive, not only because it is legal and they donīt run the risk of a punishment, but also of the better quality.

otoh I think that pot shouldnīt become too cheap. dope should remain a luxury. else our economies would suffer, if we all would be permanently high, just because we can afford it.

	16-06-2003 16:53									#55
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Albert: Bare in mind that the problems in the inner cities with drugs (and believe me I know), are to do with illegal drugs being supplied by dealers, thus fuelling much of the crime. By legalising it, they will not be able to remain in business supplying marijuana, thus removing part of that problem. They will only be able to do harder, illegal stuff, in which case, the social taboos and far fewer number of users of harder drugs would make them somewhat more vulnerable to police action. I say far fewer number of users of harder drugs in relation to number of people who smoke cannabis, which in my former area was comparable to numbers of those who regularly drink, and around one in ten in my town now.

quote: Marijuana also has plenty of harmful effects which the pro-legalization crowd always denies

Which can be reduced due to proper safety checking if legalised and kept under the same controls as tobacco. Gram for gram, weed to tobacco, weed is about twice as harmful, however, one smokes generally 10 times less than tobacco, and that is for heavy users.

Everything has harmful effects though, I rather giving people proper information so they can decide for themselves, like what happens (somewhat unsuccessfully although improving) with alcohol and tobacco.

quote: you know what... i'm actually kind of sickened by these threads... back in 1999, a drug legalization debate on apolyton would have been very heated but now it's just me versus everybody else. even a religious Christian like Black Dragon is in favour of legalization! this is ridiculous

awww how sweet! Nonetheless, does that not show something? Most of the arguments for keeping cannabis illegal are generally authoritarian, and generally on the right. These are views that have been heavily countered of late as people understand more and more about the issues behind them, and not the "common sense" facards, and also with this issue, people understand more than they did 4 years ago.

quote: i love how i'm the person on this forum who has the most first-hand experience of the harm that drugs do to society and yet everyone here can sit comfortably in their pink homes, lighting blunts, and saying drugs should be legalized

You're making big assumptions about how we live, and implying that we must have had a easy life to be able to have our opinions. Not everyone who's had a hard life will concur with you Albert.

	16-06-2003 16:56									#56
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Besides, whats so wrong with substances like alcohol and tobacco, as well as cannabis?

Sure there are health issues, but at the end of the day, they are merely chemicals, and down to the individual to decide if, how and why they take them. Simply banning them because they are popular, or some nanny state thinks that they are bad or harmful, are not justifiable reasons in the face of the mass of reasoning and evidence to the contrary.

	16-06-2003 17:22									#57
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I'd decriminalize but not legalize. I think the jury is still out on the effects marijuana has over long-term use ( cancer risks, etc.), and its medicinal value is dubious at best.

Plus, If there was ever a society that would abuse a substance to the point where it became a detriment to society, it would be america. I wish we were more enlightened but were not.

	16-06-2003 17:52									#58
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Marijuana should be legalized. It's no worse than alcohol.

	16-06-2003 18:11									#59
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quote: Originally posted by oedo ....legalize it and put a high tax on it and get it away from the black market that way.

Not an option. If the legal stuff is more expensive than the black market, people will just buy black market.

I'm for regulation rather than total de-criminalisation. It should still be illegal to drive under the influence, in public places it should still be banned, and it shouldn't be available to children.

I think smoking it in your own home should be OK though. Even better, allow a certain number of "legal" plants (5 in Holland?) so that you can't buy or sell the stuff but can make your own - which would bring it into line with wine and beer in the UK.

If people can grow for their own use, it would stop it being a "gateway" drug - you woulnd't be buying or selling it, so there's no excuse to buy or sell other, more harmful drugs.

	16-06-2003 18:12									#60
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Besides, whats so wrong with substances like alcohol and tobacco, as well as cannabis?

They kill people? OK, cannabis doesn't kill, but the others do.