16-06-2003 06:40									#1
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Thought that we should start a thread that deals solely with issues related to the moving of Vox to Legos Minor.

Feel free to modify this initial post for any future issues.

Here are some initial issues:

1) Where are we building the "New Voice" city?

2) What forces are we sending over for their protection and to get rid of the barbs without compromising too much the defense of our core lands?

3) Should we trade our World Map to Vox? As it would assist them in developing their new area faster and to allow them a greater immediate knowledge of the Legos continent - provided that they agree to NOT trade their world map again or let anyone know that they have our map.

4) Should we sign a formal treaty with them - which includes a permanent alliance and defense treaty and recognizes the need for both of us to cooperate on research?

EDIT May 19th

5) Do we know how long Vox has to evacuate the Stormian continent?

Last edited by Sharpe on 20-06-2003 at 07:02

	16-06-2003 06:44									#2
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My viewpoints on the above initial issues:

1) Probably should be somewhere in the middle relatively close to the iron so that they can access the iron with a city or colony quickly. That site should have grassland for food. The city should probably first build a granary if it already has a defensive presence and the latter if it doesn't.

2) Probably no Mercs should be sent over there if possible except perhaps with the settler that will become New Voice. Preferably swords or upgraded Med Infs.

3) This is a tough one - I mostly say yes to help them out to avoid the need to explore and to give them a greater knowledge of our area.

However, I bet that the other civs will almost immediately be asking them for their world map to find out where they are and on the off chance that we traded World Maps with them.

We could if they agree to not trade World Maps to anyone else until we give permission and not mention or hint to anyone that they have our World Map. This is as much for their protection (from a still vengeful GS or another civ that wishes to take advantage of their weakness) as much as ours.

4) Absolutely we need a treaty with them detailing the things mentioned as well as possibly other issues that I haven't thought about.

	16-06-2003 08:05									#3
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We can't give them our WM unless we give GoW our map wer still have a treaty active that says that.

	16-06-2003 08:06									#4
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Re world map - true I had forgotten about that map clause with GoW. I don't think we can trust GoW yet with that unless they are willing to sign a very long-term alliance with us.

	16-06-2003 08:37									#5
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Quick response: No world map trade. That is the one thing I don't think we can afford to give Vox, no matter how much we trust them. So long as only we have, only we control who else gets it.

	16-06-2003 10:45									#6
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Re: map... I believe that all they need is an OUTGAME image of Legos Minor (but that they need fast), in order to think their city placement strategy over. They do not need our worldmap for anything.

As the map of Legos Minor is NOT our world map, we would not be bound to honour our WM clause in the treaty with GoW.

I am all for signing a formal treaty - or a "letter of intent", clarifying our and their idea of the cooperation and coexistence. I started something last night, but got very sleepy and went to bed. Going to continue now.

Re: placement of their new capital - I have already explained the options to Beta and later to Eli. I told them there is little to choose from - either almost an optimally placed capital on a bonus grassland tile, or a capital displaced a little bit from the optimal location, on a regular grassland. I also gave them a precise timeline so that they know what the timeframe is.

I assume we are going to officially provide them with the outgame image of Legos Minor very soon, so it will be them making the decision regarding the location of their capital.

	16-06-2003 11:48									#7
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I think an out-game image of Legos Minor would suffice and it would not violate the treaty. Let Vox determine their city location.

Formal written agreement...of course.

	16-06-2003 12:04									#8
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In my opinion, I would like to see Vox get kicked off of Estonia. I think it's to our definite advantage to have Vox as a neighbour.
I've wondered what would become of Legos Minor. It is of no use to us unless there is a valuable strategic resource. We would be hard pressed to defend LMinor from a foreign settlement. So in any case, we know we will have a weak and friendly neighbor.

It's too late to get into the other benefits, but I like the idea. So in a strange turn of perspective...GO GS hawks!!!!!

	16-06-2003 13:26									#9
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quote: Originally posted by lmtoops In my opinion, I would like to see Vox get kicked off of Estonia. I think it's to our definite advantage to have Vox as a neighbour. I've wondered what would become of Legos Minor. It is of no use to us unless there is a valuable strategic resource. We would be hard pressed to defend LMinor from a foreign settlement. So in any case, we know we will have a weak and friendly neighbor. It's too late to get into the other benefits, but I like the idea. So in a strange turn of perspective...GO GS hawks!!!!!

Well said.

Yes, definitely, we want Vox on Legos Minor, but nowhere else. But with the recent development, the possibility of Voxes retaining the control of their very core in the Northern Estonia is no longer an option at all. The truce terms being discussed revolve around GS granting Voxes a certain number of turns to evacuate. Nothing more.

	20-06-2003 07:04									#10
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quote: The truce terms being discussed revolve around GS granting Voxes a certain number of turns to evacuate. Nothing more.

Do we know how long they have to evacuate yet? (Edited first post to add that to the list of issues)

	20-06-2003 08:59									#11
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From Beta:

quote: Greetings ZargonX of Lego! My apologies that we have taken so long to write directly. I hope you appreciate that we have been somewhat occupied with other matters. First of all, let me congratulate you on your election to the position of esteemed leader of Lego. Your election is proof of the wisdom of the people of Lego. Secondly, Vox wishes to extend its extreme gratitude to Legoland for both its assistance in the recent war, and now, more importantly, for the extension of a lifeline in the way of Legos Minor and the settler. It is both magnanamous and noble of you to do so - to say nothing of how welcome it is to Vox at a dark time such as this. Thirdly - and following on the second point - you have the assurances of all Voxians that we are your sworn allies for the remainder of the game. Despite the tactics we used against GS, we are a trustworthy nation. We will do all within our power to assist you in this game, both militarily and technically. From a FA perspective, we will make sure that we co-ordinate our trades and related efforts with you. Notwithstanding the above commitement, Vox is committed to remaining a free and noble nation, and one worthy of being your friend. And last, but certainly not least, I would like to thank vondrack for his official and personal support over the last while. It has been good to have someone you can trust unequivocably. Now - for a status report. We are close to finalizing a peace deal with GS. Just some minor details to work out. Discussions are amicable. Our first galley - with settler and spear has set sail. ETA is some 17 turns. Teleported workers will get there before it - but this gets our galley and another military unit out of Vox. Two more galleys to come. The rest will be done via workers gifted to Lego - and the remainder of our military and settlers teleported to the new continent when we gift GS our last city. The schedule is being worked out. The peace deal gives us 18 turns to 'transform' our population. We will need to discuss FA when things get settled. We can give you our perspective from the recent war. We also need to discuss loan repayment. So - once again - thank you to the people of Lego. We look forward to being neighbours. Sincerest regards ... Beta of Vox.

I am crafting a response currently.

	21-06-2003 03:08									#12
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Hard to tell what Vox wants in regards to loans... if they want an extension on payment, they should definitely get it; however, I don't see any reason to default the second loan, if that's what they want.

Also, I think we should sign at least a semi-formal treaty with Vox, if only to make desires for our future cooperation (on both sides) clear to both teams.

Some possible clauses:

1) Legoland agrees to give Legos Minor to Vox Controlli as a new homeland. Vox may not settle S of ? line across the isth; Lego may not settle N of the line

2) Vox may not declare war on another civ without Lego's permission. Lego may not declare war on Vox Controlli, except as permitted for GA triggering.

3) All techs researched by either Lego or Vox must be shared with the other team upon request. Any techs requested under this clause are subject to a permanent Non-Disclosure Agreement; the team receiving the tech may not trade it to anyone else without the giving team's permission.

4) If Lego lacks a resource Vox has, Vox must provide it to Lego when requested. [Possible additon: If Lego has a surplus of a resource Vox lacks, Lego must provide it to Vox when requested.]

5) As soon as reasonibly possible, Vox must build a warrior to keep in reserve for Lego's GA (a sacrifice to a Merc).

6) Vox must not trade its WM or TM, or any outgame images of any parts of Legos. [This clause may not be necessary, but I'd like to see Vox protect their map as we have.]

	21-06-2003 03:20									#13
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I am perfectly cool with 1+2+3+4(incl. the addition)+5. I consider #3 the very basic clause - that will be our primary long-term benefit from saving Voxes from extinction.

Not sure about 6, since if anyone gets their map, it will only make him less eager to go after them...

And BTW, thanks for posting this, Kloreep - I haven't been able to put anything together this week. This is certainly a very good start.

	23-06-2003 12:23									#14
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Hmmm... the discussion is less than... less than any, to be precise. Is that because we all are cool with the proposed principles?

Seeing nobody objecting, I guess it should be okay to send this treaty draft to Vox together with an outgame image of Legos Minor? Unless I hear someone objecting this idea, I am going to send the following info/draft to Vox before going to bed today (around midnight GMT, in about 14-16 hours):

Treaty of The New Voice

1) Legoland agrees to give Legos Minor to Vox Controli as a new homeland. Legos Minor is defined as all land beyond the isthmus of Invoice/Benelux (see the map).
No Vox Controli settlement may be founded South of the site marked as "Southernmost Vox Controli City on Legos Minor". Considering the land shown on the map attached, Legoland will settle no more sites than Port Hammer and Invoice/Benelux.



2) Legoland will, at its earliest convenience, found and gift a 2-pop city on Legos Minor to Vox Controli, in a location specified by Vox Controli. Legoland will make reasonable efforts to protect this city from barbarians until Vox Controli is able to protect it with its own forces.

3) Neither Legoland, nor Vox Cotroli will ever accept a city trying to defect (aka "culture flip") to the other party.

4) Vox Controli will never declare war on another civ without Legoland's approval and consent. Legoland will never declare war on Vox Controli, except for fake/staged wars as needed for GA triggering, combat training ("GL factory") or worker exchange. Fake wars would be declared with the approval of both parties involved.

5) All techs researched by either Legoland or Vox Controli must be shared with the other team upon request. Any techs requested under this clause are subject to a permanent Non-Disclosure Agreement; the team receiving the tech may not trade/gift/resell it to anyone else without the giving team's permission. This does NOT apply to techs acquired by trading with third parties.

6) If Legoland lacks a strategic resource Vox Controli has, Vox is obliged to provide it to Lego upon request. If Legoland has a surplus of a strategic resource Vox Controli lacks, Legoland is obliged to provide it to Vox Controli upon request. In both cases, a reasonable balance may be requested in exchange.

7) As soon as reasonably possible, Vox agree to build a warrior to keep in reserve for triggering Legoland's GA (a sacrifice to a Merc).

8) Vox Controli agrees to prefer trading no maps of Legos Minor to other civs.

Last edited by vondrack on 23-06-2003 at 15:18

	23-06-2003 14:12									#15
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I'm OK with it, except that I'd change the wording of 4). You see, this looks like we will declare a real war to Vox at some point, in order to trigger our GA. IMO it should be something like "... except for fake wars, as needed for GA triggering, combat training ("GL factory") or worker exchange. Fake wars would be declared with the approval of both parties involved".

The "worker exchange" project: captured workers (slaves) are free, and since both of us are industrious, 2 workers would work like one of ours, but for free! I'm not sure if traded workers are free or not, but if they are, there is no need to declare fake wars to exchange them, we can simply trade them.

	23-06-2003 14:48									#16
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re resources - Kloreep mentioned to me in the chatroom that he meant "strategic resources" only.

We should not be obligated to trade our dyes to Vox if we can trade them for another luxury or some other considerations.

I suspect that this is unlikely to happen, but what do we do if say we don't have any saltpeter (or any other strategic resource) and they do, but only one of them? Are they obligated to trade it to us and leave themselves with none? Or do we switch ownership of such an item every 20 turns or so?

	23-06-2003 15:17									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I'm OK with it, except that I'd change the wording of 4). You see, this looks like we will declare a real war to Vox at some point, in order to trigger our GA. IMO it should be something like "... except for fake wars, as needed for GA triggering, combat training ("GL factory") or worker exchange. Fake wars would be declared with the approval of both parties involved".

OK, no problem, you wording does sound better.

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius The "worker exchange" project: captured workers (slaves) are free, and since both of us are industrious, 2 workers would work like one of ours, but for free! I'm not sure if traded workers are free or not, but if they are, there is no need to declare fake wars to exchange them, we can simply trade them.

Yep, agreed, this is a theoretically brilliant concept first mentioned by GoW, I think. Though, I would be rather sceptical about the viability of this as far as Vox Controli on Legos Minor is concerned. Legos Minor has very little food potential and Voxian cities will grow VERY slowly - every worker would cost them a pop point that would be difficult to replace... I guess it would be better to have them focus on reaching pops as high as possible, working as many commerce producing tiles as possible, becoming a truly worthwhile researching power/ally. OTOH, we may eventually have more pop than needed - gifting them our excess pop may help them grow faster... and they may even later "return" the workers... a long way, though. Let's keep the concept in mind, but I don't believe it will become the topic of the day any time soon.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe re resources - Kloreep mentioned to me in the chatroom that he meant "strategic resources" only. We should not be obligated to trade our dyes to Vox if we can trade them for another luxury or some other considerations.

Good point. Precised the wording.

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I suspect that this is unlikely to happen, but what do we do if say we don't have any saltpeter (or any other strategic resource) and they do, but only one of them? Are they obligated to trade it to us and leave themselves with none? Or do we switch ownership of such an item every 20 turns or so?

What I had in mind was that they would be obliged to trade it to us, yes. It may sound harsh, but as you said, it is very unlikely to happen, considering the HUGE landmass of Legos Major - and IF it happens, then it will undoubtedly be us being able to make much better use of that strategic resource. Considering the fact that Voxian Legos Minor cities will have rather low shield output, being forced to focus on sea-based commerce, they will be better off building cheaper "resourceless" versions of military units, trading the resource in question to us (we would be building the "resource-rich" versions of the units), upgrading for gold once in every 20 turns when the deal with us would run out.

	23-06-2003 20:33									#18
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With the changes made as per everyone's suggestions, I'd say that looks like a very solid proposal, Vondrack. I would go ahead and send it to Vox at your earliest convenience.

	23-06-2003 20:37									#19
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Agreed, the treaty looks great.

	23-06-2003 22:57									#20
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OK, will send it shortly.

EDIT: treaty draft sent to BetaHound.

Last edited by vondrack on 23-06-2003 at 23:54

	24-06-2003 01:24									#21
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Just BTW - Nathan Barclay just posted in the public forum that GS ratified a peace treaty with Voxes.