17-06-2003 01:38									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident It's not demented!

It doesn't sound like some wierd RPG to you?

	17-06-2003 03:07									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident hey that's what the lefties always say It's a woman's decision. Men have no part of it. Therefore we should not be talking about this.

Excuse me??

A good husband very much has a part in the decision to have a fetus aborted through discussion with his wife.

I support limited, regulated abortion (not convenience abortion), but at the same time, I also know that the husband certainly needs to be included in the decision -- this also means a boyfriend who could become a father in this case.

A woman has the right over her body, but unless she wants to be completely insensitive and inconsiderate to her husband or boyfriend, she ought to discuss this with him.

	17-06-2003 03:12									#33
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quote: so what are you saying? that people shouldn't be catholic?

Just because the majority does something does not make the majority right, or even acceptable.

The biggest question is acceptable to whom? In my example, the girl will feel that abortion would be a bad choice, and this will influence what happens to her after the abortion.

Even if the majority do something, it does not necessarily dissolve any stigma society imposes.

	17-06-2003 03:37									#34
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I'm sorry MrFun, but a man should have no say over a woman's body.

You are infringing on the rights of women.

Let's put it this way Obi. I won't deny there isn't a stigma. But I still disagree that society causes this stigma. You can say religion does, but religion is not part of the entire american society. I know athiests and Europeans think it does, but it doesn't. Sure I live in a town full of sin. But Florida is just as secular. I have lived there- the major cities that is. There are millions of athiests in the U.S., and even more agnostics. there are millions of other religions aside from christians as well. And of the christians, few of them go to church, and refrain from sinning and breaking the 10 commandments. In essense, religion is not a major factor in the U.S. Sure it might be in a few weird regions and get right wing whackos elected to congress.

Last edited by Dis on 17-06-2003 at 03:42

	17-06-2003 06:06									#35
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From what I know:
PAS is largely apocryphal according to the APA. If it does exist, it is supported only by anecdotal evidence.
Side effects of abortion nowadays do happen, but serious complications aren't too common.
Granted, this is just from what I know/have read...
As for the coathanger crap, the argument is incorrect in the first place if you ask me; it's not the responsibility of governments to make sure the law can be safely broken. Remember, we can't prevent crack-smoking. We can only prevent the smoking of government-regulated and hygienically certified crack. But who gives a ****? They're breaking the bloody law. You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas. Boo-hoo.
As long as I'm griping, I think the "you're not a woman, you've never had to make the choice" argument is a crock too. Since when has objectivity been an undesirable trait for cases of moral judgment? I don't see what anyone's desires have to do with questions of right and wrong.

	17-06-2003 06:10									#36
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They're right, this DOES sound like a demented video game... sounds fun!

	17-06-2003 06:38									#37
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A game with particularily crappy (that is, old and very early King's Quest-like) graphics.

I'm sure abortion does have mental/physical consequences to some degree (not the same for everyone/every time, obviously), but the woman that chooses to carry it out must surely be made aware of it.

	17-06-2003 08:47									#38
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my mom revealed to me she had an abortion... she has no regrets...

	17-06-2003 09:49									#39
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Before the fall of Communism, some Eastern Europeans had a concept known as the "mother year." A mother of a newborn would receive one year off with pay and get her old job back when she returned to work. Abortion, though legal, was almost unheard of in these countries. Once the mother year went away, abortion rates skyrocketed in these countries

The Soviet Union consistently had obscene abortion rates. Since the fall of Communism, and other more acceptable methods of birth control, the abortion rate has dropped. Here's a good article on the subject, and the infertility of many Russian women due to repeated abortions.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...1¬Found=true

You can't help but notice that the commie bastard countries (Cuba, Vietnam) tend to have high abortion rates.

	17-06-2003 14:23									#40
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quote: I'm sorry MrFun, but a man should have no say over a woman's body. You are infringing on the rights of women.

a devoted boyfriend or a husband, who is the father of that fetus, should have quite a bit of bearing on whether the wife/girlfriend decides to abort or not. he does not have the right to force her to have the child, but seeing as that child is roughly 50% his, he does have some say in whether the child lives or dies.

true, the woman does get the final say. the man, however, shouldn't have his opinion/desires completely ignored, just because he's not the pregnant one.

unless, i suppose, you view the baby as a parasite on the mother?

	17-06-2003 15:11									#41
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Fun,

A good husband very much has a part in the decision to have a fetus aborted through discussion with his wife.

He's not a part in the decision, because it's totally either-or. You can't possibly compromise like it was next year's budget being passed or something like that. Of course the couple should talk about it, but as the woman has the right to ignore his view completely - I'm sure you'll agree she has that right - it doesn't make sense.

	17-06-2003 15:12									#42
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Q Cubed, the same goes for you. What is "some say" in the matter?

	17-06-2003 16:44									#43
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some say == the woman should at least let him voice his opinion. like i said, the final decision rests with her, but it's not like the father of her child should be completely ignored as if his opinion is worth nothing.

	17-06-2003 16:58									#44
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Ahhh, abortion, one of those questions on which I haven't yet made up my mind.

	17-06-2003 17:01									#45
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it's one of those questions, like euthanasia.

i personally am against it, but i'd never presume to force that upon anybody. if my gf or wife wanted one, i'd do my damndest to convince them not to, and then wonder how i managed to not know that about my wife/gf.

	17-06-2003 17:06									#46
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It's esp. difficult to me because I am a utilitarian.

I am inclined to a solution that a commitee of social workers and welfare workers would assess the chances of this baby growing in acceptable conditions.

	17-06-2003 19:33									#47
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Any documentation for the effect on the abortion rate of the mother year?

I'll see what I can find. My information source relates specifically to East Germany.

	17-06-2003 20:49									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I'm sorry Che but I can't take your word for it this time. You aren't a woman, and don't know what it's like having a child inside of you and then killing it.

Too bad, so sad. From the article DanS linked (btw, DanS, my info dealt with East Germany):

quote: Russian women came to view abortion as a routine procedure, doctors say, comparable almost to a tooth extraction. A study in 1994 found that the average Russian woman had three abortions by the end of her child-bearing years.

Most of my friends who've had abortions don't talking about the horror of killing a living being that they were nurturing inside them. One or two did, but the general opinion of most of these women is "Thank god I had an abortion! Wish I'd been more careful."

If our society's churches weren't always blasting our socety with "Abortion is murder!" then women wouldn't aborb that message, not even subconsciously. People don't come up with their values out of their own heads, we are taught them, we are surrounded by them, the very air we breathe is infused with them (this is a metaphor). Even the pro-choice movement teaches the message that abortion is not a desirable choice (I'm not saying it is, either-but their argument doesn't stem from the fact that being pregnant is dangerous and having an operation is dangerous, albeit less so than carrying the fetus to term).

If we had the same attitude as the Russians have, I doubt that many women would be traumatized by having an abortion nor kill themselves as a result.

	17-06-2003 20:56									#49
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The attitude's very different even in this country. Here there's very little abortion debate at all. It's basically a settled matter. We've got what pretty much everyone thinks is a decent set of laws and that's it.

	17-06-2003 21:51									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Monk Fun, A good husband very much has a part in the decision to have a fetus aborted through discussion with his wife. He's not a part in the decision, because it's totally either-or. You can't possibly compromise like it was next year's budget being passed or something like that. Of course the couple should talk about it, but as the woman has the right to ignore his view completely - I'm sure you'll agree she has that right - it doesn't make sense.

Geez guys -- yes, in the end the woman has the right. But if she never discusses this with the man she supposedly shares her life with, she is being extremely inconsiderate and insensitive.

	18-06-2003 10:20									#51
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quote: If we had the same attitude as the Russians have, I doubt that many women would be traumatized by having an abortion nor kill themselves as a result.

Assumes that the Russians deal well with their abortions. I go to a Russian ministry, with lots of recent immigrants from the former soviet union. One of the common accounts is that they wish they had been shown pictures of their children. They feel they would have made a very different choice.

No matter how you dress up an abortion, the mother feels a sense of loss. Some take this loss harder than others.

Dissident:

It's not just the church, many woman report depression regardless of their religious affiliation. So the source of their pain has to come from somewhere else.

If everybody is doing it, why do some feel guilty? Why don't we have more women openly admit to abortions?

	18-06-2003 11:08									#52
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well my answer is what I was getting at before.

Individuals have different sets of moral values. These are instilled by their parents, not society.

	18-06-2003 13:06									#53
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quote: 'Roe' Wants Abortion Case Reversed DALLAS, June 17, 2003 (AP) The former plaintiff known as "Jane Roe" in the 1973 U.S. Supreme Court case that legalized abortion sought to have the case overturned in a motion filed Tuesday that asks the courts to consider new evidence that abortion hurts women. Norma McCorvey, who joined the anti-abortion fight nearly 10 years ago and says she regrets her role in Roe v. Wade, said the Supreme Court's decision is no longer valid because scientific and anecdotal evidence that has come to light in the last 30 years has shown the negative effects of abortion. "We're getting our babies back," a jubilant McCorvey said at a news conference while flanked by about 60 women, some who sobbed and held signs that read "I regret my abortion." "I feel like the weight of the world has just been lifted off my shoulders," said McCorvey, 55. Sarah Weddington, the abortion advocate and attorney who originally represented McCorvey, did not immediately return a call seeking comment. A representative from the National Organization for Women also did not immediately return a message. Allen Parker Jr., McCorvey's attorney, said he could not remember any other landmark case in which the plaintiff has asked to have it overturned. "I think the new evidence will show the court what they thought was good will turn out to be an instrument of wrong," said Parker, who is with the San Antonio-based Texas Justice Foundation. McCorvey filed the motion with the federal district court in Dallas, which ruled to legalize abortion in Texas before the Supreme Court ruling. The Texas attorney general's office and Dallas district attorney each have 20 days to respond to the motion. McCorvey and her attorneys asked the federal court to consider more than 5,400 pages of evidence, including 1,000 affidavits from women who say they regret their abortions. McCorvey was a 21-year-old carnival barker when, pregnant for the third time, she sought an abortion. She agreed to be the plaintiff in a lawsuit seeking to overturn Texas' anti-abortion statute. The Supreme Court decision came after she had the baby. It was the third child she put up for adoption. McCorvey publicly identified herself as Jane Roe in 1980. © MMIII The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003...ain559102.shtml

	18-06-2003 16:24									#54
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According to the discussions I had with aborted women (in their twenties), Abortion DOES have psycholgical side effects, and does do damage.
The memory that you have killed a potential child is haunting (although I'd suppose not as much as a birth-death), and the abortion in itself is a painful memory.
A friend of mine, during her abortion, complained to the abortionist he was getting too rough and it hurt. The abortionist answered "You should just have taken care" (I can't translate the arrogance of the expression). This memory is not going to fade away anytime soon.

I also have experienced this kind of damage first hand : I have a friend who's already mother of one child, and who was in her early prenancy with another child. Needless to say, the father of the first child is awawy, and it is unlikely she spends her life with the father of the second. Add very limited resources in the mix, and the fact that she has to study, then you know the second child would have ruined all three lifes in the family.
When I convinced her to abort for second time, despite her oath never to abort again, she cried. Mucho. She knew she had to undergo this trauma again.

In answer to Che : I live in a society where anti-abortionism is pretty much a dead cause, and where anti-abortionists are widely seen as inhuman *******s who don't give a rat's ass about the woman. However, women know very much, in any society, that an abortion means the destruction of a potential life they could have bore. And they don't like this idea. I'm glad Che has met women who could abort without moral problems. But from my experience, these women are just extremely rare.