17-06-2003 19:50									#31
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quote: Shall we tell them to turn back this turn, promising that we will sell our map for a reasonable price very soon?

If we are going to sell our map, we might aswell let them map as much as they want (read: waste galley turns)
-

Shiber, you have done the tapping thing on the cats I hope

	17-06-2003 20:13									#32
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I've no idea either.
Our income at the start of the turn (w/o touching anything) is 50 gpt.

	17-06-2003 20:44									#33
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Edit: oh, I'm stupid and I post twice.

	17-06-2003 22:48									#34
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Aeson, I thought that changing the lux slider updates the cities itself, but not the F1 screen... but if you adjust the citizens, it does change. So by setting the governor to "manage all city moods", and then go back and adjust them manually we should be able to see the effect of a non-GA production.

I'm not certain at this, because it's been a while since I had the time to play (last thing I did was the Euro PBEM, and the next save is waiting in my in-box for a while now), so don't take my word on it. I thought it was established we needed either more lux, or a bigger lux slider to adjust for non-GA commerce levels, in which case we need to set the lux slider to 20% anyway.

DeepO

	17-06-2003 23:39									#35
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Yah, looks like with non-GA commerce levels we need 20% Lux rate for 6 Happy, 1 Content, and 5 Unhappy citizens in EotS and Hurricane.

With 4 more Luxuries (6 total) we can get by with 10%. With Marketplaces, we can put it to 10% with only 2 more Luxuries (4 total).

	17-06-2003 23:50									#36
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BTW, with 6 total Luxuries and Marketplaces in any city over size 10 we can run 0% Luxury rate.

	18-06-2003 04:07									#37
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I went ahead and played the turn; the Apolyton server's been having trouble, and there didn't seem to be anything complicated. Reinforcements are on their way in case they're needed, including four pikes from D1 (which were immediately replaced with four other pikes ) and six WCs on our eastern galleys to be unloaded in Inchoff next turn.

	18-06-2003 17:49									#38
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Aeson, is this with the temples we just built there? When looking at the screenies (as 'poly was indeed erratic yesterday) I realized I had forgotten about those... and they came online the exact same moment as our commerce decreased.

DeepO

	18-06-2003 17:56									#39
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More thoughts:
- Do we have a settlement plan for the North yet?
- Are we going to pump Tempest, or Arashi?
- wouldn't it be better that the cities currently on courthouses / aquaducts build a worker first, to avoid losing too much pop? (I know EotS and Hurricane can't do it, because of efficiency reasons)
- Can we move a few offensive forces closer to where RP could (most likely wouldn't) land? Do we need to start blocking prime landing sites with the excess of troops we still have?
- Is it a viable option to disband part of our military once Vox complies to the Voxodus plan?
- Do we need to start selling our WM right now, before we can use our galleys to do some extensive scouting? We need to keep using the advantage the lighthouse has given us so far...

DeepO

	18-06-2003 18:32									#40
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No, I didn't realize we built temples. Shouldn't change the necessary Luxury levels though.

In WW and Monsoon, I think a Harbor/Aquaduct will help us more than a Courthouse. I'm thinking in terms of the FP being up and running (in Arashi for both cities or D7 for Monsoon) before those projects are completed.

In Blizzard, I think a Temple will help more than a Courthouse. That opens up 2 more bonus Grassland tiles for use.

Are we going to short rush the Market in Hurricane to make a run at the Collosus? Probably a poll item as it's a big decision.

In general I agree with DeepO that cities on their pop limits and just starting construction on a project should pump out a Worker or Settler first. In the case of an Aquaduct, we end up with more pop once the Aquaduct finishes, even though the finish date is delayed a few turns. Since the goal of an Aquaduct is to allow more population, it should almost always be a good tradeoff.

Inchoff doesn't really need walls anymore, any idea on what to build there? A Temple would be a good idea I think. The Temple would allow us to chop Inchoff 21 to speed the build, and then have a 2 food tile to work with. A 10 turn worker pump for now if it's a non-bonus grassland?

Here's my initial idea about city placement:

	18-06-2003 18:54									#41
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By settling the city on the jungle (B777), we can avoid a temple in Inchoff for now, but even then a temple could be a good thing to consider there anyway. (or a courthouse, perhaps)

further, at first glance your settling map looks okay... even if it would require disbanding most of the Vox cities. We're definately turning into a coastal nation

DeepO

	18-06-2003 19:00									#42
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

dp

Last edited by DeepO on 18-06-2003 at 19:11

	18-06-2003 19:00									#43
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Let's get a couple of temples up, yeah. Besides the reasons already mentioned, we could use a little more culture.

-Arrian

	18-06-2003 19:05									#44
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Yah, coastal cities to grab every last coast and sea tile we can reach... and also to deny landings on as many tiles as possible. Then a few well placed units, and we can have an almost completely secure homeland for about another Era.

	18-06-2003 19:13									#45
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That's what I was thinking about too. We should have enough troops to cover our complete coast, certainly if we can move them around after scouting for invasions. I definately appreciate the homeland security it could provide, it leaves a lot of options open to dwell off our continent

DeepO

	18-06-2003 19:28									#46
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO further, at first glance your settling map looks okay... even if it would require disbanding most of the Vox cities. We're definately turning into a coastal nation

Upon capturing a town with 1 pop and no culture, does the city disband into a slave or do you get to keep it?
If the former is correct, then we can capture Vox's towns instead of being gifted those towns. Better than disbanding them with a settler, I think, because you get a no-cost 1/2 worker for the rest of the game.

	18-06-2003 19:38									#47
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I'd just like to note that when placing those cities, it was without respect to where we end up with our FP. With our FP at the bottleneck, I think spacing the cities out in N Stormia would be more useful than packing them close together like that.

-------------

First slave from a razed town comes from a pop 3 IIRC. Sometimes Workers/Settlers built in cities show up as foreign Workers (Yes, sometimes even the Settlers show up in the 'captured' list for some reason). Not exactly sure when/why it happens, or if they require upkeep or not.

	18-06-2003 20:36									#48
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nationality of workers: building workers from a city with only foreign citizens is most of the times a good way of generating slaves (although they do not always show up in the captured troops list). I think it has something to do with the availability of food: if there is a deficit, you get a slave. Otherwise you won't.

In case the city has a mixed nationaility, there is still a chance this happens, although it seems to target 'younger' citizens first. But there certainly is some kind of chance at work or something I haven't observed yet, as results are not explained by the 'younger citizen leaves first' rule.

It might have something to do with actual allocation of citizens on tiles, were the citizen leaving is the one who's tile becomes empty. As the best tiles are most of the times picked by the oldest citizens, they remain citizens, while others become workers / slaves / settlers.

Oh, a settler is only foreign if 2 foreigners left the city. In case there is only one, mostly the first citizen is native in the new city, but the first citizen born will be foreign. Exceptions are when in the mean time, the foreigner would get 'absorbed' into native culture, leading to 2 native citizens in a new city (once it grows, of course)

DeepO

	18-06-2003 20:43									#49
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO - Can we move a few offensive forces closer to where RP could (most likely wouldn't) land?

Yeah we should probably get a stack of units to just follow the galley round the coast.

	18-06-2003 21:34									#50
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Actually, we didn't just build temples. Our production dropped, and I decided that with the luxury slider settings holding for the moment, a marketplace and library in EotS are higher priorities. (Unfortunately, EotS is currently at 19 shields; I need to have a worker switch a tile to irrigation, since there's probably no longer much point to running a food deficit there.) With Hurricane, I've been planning to switch the marketplace over to the Colossus (or a palace or FP prebuild for it) if someone else doesn't grab the Colossus by the time we would need to do so. If we want the wonder, I don't think we want to spend the time for even a short-rushed marketplace; 12 turns instead of 10 could be critical.

	18-06-2003 21:50									#51
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Let's go for the Colossus in Hurricane. There is a pretty good chance that Lego is building it and will beat us to it, and if so, we can switch back to a market. I hope we can snag it, though.

EotS @ 19 shields is unfortunate. Market first, right Nathan?

-Arrian

	18-06-2003 21:57									#52
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sigh.. another dp

Last edited by DeepO on 18-06-2003 at 22:16

	18-06-2003 21:57									#53
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EotS at 19 shields: worker first? 17 shields is just as good, if we're not wonder building... and 16 is also acceptable

[edit: never mind, we're already at 19 shields there, and would lose in total 28 shields if switching to a worker now]

DeepO

Last edited by DeepO on 18-06-2003 at 22:15

	18-06-2003 22:19									#54
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Colossus: we won't get it, unless one thing is happening: Lego already has enough shields to build the Colosus, but are still prebuilding a palace because they want to keep the option open of another wonder they like more. In case we do build the Colossus, I would like to time it so that EotS builds something the exact same turn as Hurricane would complete, and only in production phase switch from palace to Colossus. This will mean no warning whatsoever to other teams, as otherwise they can switch during production, lose a couple of shields, but still be faster then us.

DeepO

	19-06-2003 11:27									#55
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FYI: Eli says that Vox will probably want to move all their units south of Inchon to D'Ville and gift the city to us in order to teleport them back to the north (where some can be disbanded and the rest teleported to Lego Land once Vox is done evacuating).

	19-06-2003 12:23									#56
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If we get the city and disband it, we end up with whatever unhappiness is currently there from their using it to pop rush somewhere else. That's a bit problematic., with exactly how problematic depending on how badly it's been pop rushed.

	19-06-2003 14:19									#57
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We could just regard the city as a useless tile - keep it at size 1 with no growth (scientist or taxman) so that it is producing 3 gold/beakers per turn, and just build our other cities as though it wasn't there, until it's unhappiness has run out (we can test by letting it grow to size two and seeing whether someone is unhappy there I guess, since we're at chieftain). This is probably the plan if we don't want to keep the city there long term.


Or if we do like a city where D'ville is, given the influx of luxuries we are getting soon (hopefully), we could just use it as a normal city, but limit its growth to whatever its pop-rushing penalties allow allowing for improvements. With 6 luxuries and chieftain unhappiness, that gives us something like size 9 or 10 minus pop-rushes, so a size 6 city would probably be viable by the time it grows to size 6. So the unhappiness there might not be a factor at all for us if we want to keep the city.

	19-06-2003 15:54									#58
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How much longer can Hurricane run a food deficit? Once it's food is done, we switch EotS back to a food deficit. It gets 20 shields per turn with using a fur tile IIRC. In the meantime, irrigating to save our food in EotS will work. Then we can remine later to get back to 20. Might not be worth it if we have most of our improvements done by then though.

	19-06-2003 15:59									#59
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Dissidentville should be productive if we've made our trades for Luxuries by then. They can't have whipped it more than 4 times in the past 20 turns, which with 3 born content, would mean we need 4 Luxuries to be able to grow to size 3. We should be able to have 6 within a few turns.

We could build a Worker or two there, then disband with a Settler. The unhappiness would be gone by that point.

	19-06-2003 18:09									#60
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Well, clearly they now understand teleportation. Have we explained how we want them to use that for their exodus?

-Arrian