16-06-2003 11:02									#1
	Turn 113, 310 BC Remove this text

Whoever plays the turn (duh!) please note the two "urgent messages" in the Vox diplo thread before opening the turn.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...433#post2095433

	16-06-2003 21:47									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Further, just a repetition: I'm not certain, but if our GA ends at the end of this turn, we probably should set lux to 20%, to avoid disorder in a few cities next turn.

DeepO

	16-06-2003 23:11									#3
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I guess the big question is do we think we have a "settlement in principle" with Vox, and therefore cease hostilities this turn?

I've stated that though I don't really want to, I don't see an alternative to accepting a Voxexodus, and negotiating the best deal we can get, because Lego has committed to saving them via city-gifting. Continuing to fight now means we won't get free tech from them and whatnot, but they will still survive (unless we're willing to hunt them down, which will take a while, tie up our navy, and be generally unpleasant for relations with Legoland).

So peace - because I feel we have no choice. I will remember Legoland's part in this.

A reminder that Vox apparently made yet another "mistake" and gifted us Dissidentville, but now are asking us to reject it for now Man, they're disorganized.

-Arrian

	16-06-2003 23:36									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Beta knew that he was not supposed to offer this, he just made a silly mistake.
Btw, I understand that he replayed Vox's turn without sending forth the in-game proposal and sent it to Lego.

	16-06-2003 23:46									#5
	Put an end to popups!

s'OK, we don't want D'ville as a gift anyway. If we disband it after, the unhappiness will jump to Monsoon. Yes?

Better to occupy and raze it. Yes?

Anyone know the mechanics of unhappiness jumping better than I?

	17-06-2003 00:05									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I think we'd rather capture/autoraze it, yeah. I want to move it anyway.

Shiber, good

-Arrian

	17-06-2003 00:23									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

What we really want is for Vox to abandon it so the unhappiness stays with them, I think.

	17-06-2003 00:32									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Nathan, can the unhappiness jump to one of our cities? I've always wondered about that.

	17-06-2003 00:53									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

When you capture a city, you inherit its unhappiness due to pop rushing or drafting. So unless Firaxis built special code into their "transfer unhappiness when a city is disbanded" routine, it would just be a normal, routine transfer of unhappiness from one of our cities to another. I won't guarantee that Firaxis didn't write in something special for such situations, but I seriously doubt it.

Actually, come to think of it, the best thing for all concerned would probably be if we'd raze the city (and, presumably, its unhappiness with it). The same might go for all of Vox's other cities except the one they use for the teleport (which they, and we in helping them with their planning, probably need to avoid pop-rushing in).

	17-06-2003 00:55									#10
	Support Apolyton

That's what I'm thinking. Except, there are likely some in the North that have not been whipped. They would make good settler sorces to move cities to suit our own ideas of a good grid.

	17-06-2003 03:33									#11
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Is unhappiness really worth it to lose pop on? I doubt it, in the long run. Each size 1 city we abandon, raze, or not get gifted means one extra settler we need to build. 2 pop points means ~4 commerce in most of our harbor cities, for the entirety of the game. So, those 20 possible unhappiness turns are well worth it, unless I'm seriously mistaken.

The only solution is that we gain slaves for each city we lose, as that would mean a constant 0.5 gpt gain, while we keep half our pop ability (so we only lose 2 commerce per turn, instead of 4). Otherwise I would never disband, or raze cities! Don't forget, population is the only resource in Civ, all the rest (shields, commerce, resources, military) is a direct consequence of pop. If that pop is unhappy, it won't produce much a couple of turns, but after that it is an extra we don't want to lose...

Because conquering is not the best option, I think we should either get the cities, and keep them (besides, is D-ville so badly positioned?), or demand slaves for each city Vox disbands. If we want to give Vox a reasonable start, they will need the population, but so do we, so let's not squander them, there's already so few of them in former Voxian land.

DeepO

	17-06-2003 05:49									#12
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Unhappiness isn't going to be much of a deal if we have 2 more luxuries from RP, 1 from GoW, and 1 from ND.

Probably an unhappiness jump would end up in Inchon, Elipolis, or Monsoon... Arashi is also a possibility. I've seen some weird unhappiness jumps to core cities though, so it's not certain. I'd much rather keep the unhappiness in the newly aquired city, as a few luxuries will make it usable. In a core city (or even Arashi) we might have to raise the luxury slider to deal with the same unhappiness.

So while I don't really care to keep Dissidentville or wherever, it's better than abandoning any cities. Razing cities isn't of much value, as we'll eventually end up with the unhappiness somewhere.

I think we should try to give Vox the best start possible, and ask to split the difference so to speak. Maybe we can keep all their cities at size 1 if they feel we are helping them get better value out of it than they could themselves. Having their cities intact will really help the rebuilding process, even if all they build is a Worker each 10 turns.

	17-06-2003 09:07									#13
	Tired of ads?

OK. That works, just D'ville is likely to have to sit a good long while before unhappiness goes away. It is 20 turns for each whip, right? Consecutive sentences, not concurrent, right?

	17-06-2003 09:21									#14
	Got spare money?

Yep, that's how I understand it.

BTW, did we ask/demand that any improvement build is not to be sold off?

	17-06-2003 09:40									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

Will add that to the list, alva.

	17-06-2003 10:59									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'm pretty sure they fixed unhappiness from whipping to be from 20 turns from when the whip happened. So in 20 turns, the unhappiness will be gone regardless. The reason this was a 'fix' is because when they had it consecutive, only one citizen was ever unhappy at one time... which meant infinite pop rushing was possible without building up extra unhappiness.

Dissidentville probably was whipped 2-4 (they did something with those two workers we saw) times in the last 20 turns. It should grow every 7, very doubtful that they'd have a Granary there. Even at 4 rushes still counting, with 6 Luxuries it should be able to build the Settler to disband itself and to rebuild at D7 in roughly the time it takes for the unhappiness to disappear.

	17-06-2003 11:25									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

OK. Can we sim that, so it doesn't jump to our FP site at an awkward time?

	17-06-2003 11:31									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Well, if it's not too late, why doesn't GS upgrade before playing this turn, and then each team can do it on their turn?

From the public forum, so Nathan, If you want and are able to (other PBEMs?), you can upgrade.
Guess it can wait 'till next too though..

	17-06-2003 11:40									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: OK. Can we sim that, so it doesn't jump to our FP site at an awkward time?

Have to figure out where our FP site is going to be. If it's D7, there's not chance the unhappiness goes there, because Dissidentville has to be disbanded before we found the city.

If it's Arashi, a marketplace should cover it in any case (with 6 luxuries).

	17-06-2003 11:45									#20
	Inflate your Upload Space

Can we count on trade in a dangerous world?

	17-06-2003 12:26									#21
	Put an end to popups!

Does unhappiness jump to your cities when you raze a city instead of taking it intact? That seems like it would be a pretty insane result.

Another possibility that occurred to me is for Vox to disband units in order to disband Dissidentville with a settler when it grows. That should time reasonably well, and would make sure the unhappiness doesn't hit us.

	17-06-2003 12:28									#22
	Full PM-box? Change here!

By the way, any objections if I add the patch before we play our turn? That would pretty much require upgrading in the Euro and GS3 PBEMs on or before my next turn in them, probably.

	17-06-2003 12:36									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I'm all for upgrading, including all my PBEMs too.

	17-06-2003 12:39									#24
	Support Apolyton

I've already upgraded to 1.21

	17-06-2003 12:51									#25
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I fear that unhappiness can cross civ boundaries due to disbandment from worker, settler, or menu option. I think you are safe with conquest. However, as pointed out, we can most likely out-wait the happiness sentence and then disband to our own settlers. I always disband conquests to settlers in my SP games. My oppo's grid never meshes with mine. I have done it in MP too, when it lasted long enough.

Addit: Wonder cities are the exception, of course. I plan the new grid around them.

	17-06-2003 14:07									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm probably stating the obvious here, but lets not assume that the war is over just yet. If Vox have withdrawn their troops, good, but we still need to reinforce Inchon and Elipolis to guard against the possibility of talks breaking down (or is that not in the spirit of the cease-fire?) And it is probably worth keeping a contingency plan in case tnigs go wrong at a later date (a few fully loaded galleys offshore near their core for example).

	17-06-2003 18:19									#27
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm in favor of reinforcing what we already have with defensive and offensive units in case that GoW, ND or RP would decide to take advantage of the situation and take a bite out of Vox.
But let's not build any more units, we are already paying ridiculous upkeep.
Turn is here, I will open it shortly. I did not upgrade yet because I have a PBEM that was not upgraded yet, but that doesn't matter because this game is still 1.14 and I'm probably not going to be the one to play & send our turn.

	17-06-2003 18:23									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The golden age is over
No readjustment of the lux slider is necessary though

	17-06-2003 18:32									#29
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The golden age is over
No readjustment of the lux slider is necessary though

All Voxian troops are out of range for an immediate strike on Inchon and Elipolis (as far as we can see) except for a stack of 4 with warriors and spearmen that still needs one more turn to retreat.
Three catapults are waiting, undefended, near the walled city of Elipolis. The similarity to the tale of the Trojan Horse is remarkable, maybe we shouldn't bring those inside...

RP's galley is 22 of Inchon. Next turn they will chart Monsoon. Shall we tell them to turn back this turn, promising that we will sell our map for a reasonable price very soon? Btw, lets move some cats to the area of Monsoon, in case we decide to sink RP's galley (I don't think that this would be appropriate at this point, but we want to keep our options open).

Btw, we did get an offer that includes D'Ville in the end... probably Lego didn't play the second save that Beta sent them.

Btw2, all the civs of Bob still have fewer cities than we do (even though we were at war for 20 turns). They'll be jealous when they get our WM.

Oh, and most important! GA is over but we are STILL #1 in GNP, Mfg. Goods and Productivity!

	17-06-2003 19:33									#30
	Get a bigger avatar today!

About the GA ending, I'm not so sure we're safe. Did the popup show, or just the tiles update to show non-GA production? Some things don't seem to update till the end of turn. I've nocticed builds that still give the # of turns remaining staying the same when a GA ends, and happiness levels too. Somewhat like when a luxury is traded for/traded away, the happiness level in cities doesn't update until the luxury slider is moved or another turn goes by.

Never really payed much attention to it, and have little experience with it in PtW in any case (none in MP), we should be careful. Do happiness levels change when we move the luxury slider up and then back? (where they are now vs where they are after the two changes)