27-06-2003 17:42									#31
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quote: Originally posted by HarryH He is using 25 years between turns. Our moves are going at 20 years between turns. Please have him verify and update. I am using the year to make plans.

vondrack has confirmed. The turns are correct - his years were wrong. They should have been 20 years apart.

	27-06-2003 19:20									#32
	The Treasury Report, 250BC Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Ok here is the summary.

We have 71 gold, and currently adding 7 gpt. This will fluctuate as cities are downsized, units disbanded, and settlers/workers produced.

We owe Lego 70 gold, but the repayment date is very fleixible.

GoW will pay us 35 gold in 10 turns (when engineering is done). I have asked for them to up that to 70.

RP will pay us 200 gold for engineering, through some combination of lump sum and gpt payment.

I have asked NeuD if the want to help financially.

And you will see my post in the GS thread suggesting we approach them as well.

So - via the teleporting method, I expect we will not be too many turns with only one city - but we should at least have some cash to get us through it. Timing will be key.

	27-06-2003 19:34									#33
	Timing Issues Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

My treasury report, in cojunction with the earlier posts on the evac plan shows some issues. This is how it would seem to lay out:

The New Voice will be built in 4 turns.

We are still 5 turns away from abandoning Dissidentville, if we want to produce a worker there. e can forego the shields (4) and food (10 I think) stockpiled there and transport our units to the north more quickly. WE NEED TO DECIDE IF THIS IS WHAT WE WANT TO DO. OR NOT.

We are probably 10-12 turns or so (off the top of my head guess) from geetting the Northern cities ready. Note howver, that this would go much quicker if we abondoned D'ville this turn - as it would allow us to use the excess Immortals and warriors for shield cash-ins, and thus allow us to use the population in the northen cities more quickly.

For example - Beta-by-the-Sea will take 5 turns to produce a worker at 2 shields per turn. Cashing in an immortal for 7 shields reduces that to 2 turns.

Wittlich City will be the issue - but with most of the units there - it could be run down very quickly. Likely one pop per turn. Although I would like to get one more settler out of it.

So - the basic question is: Do we hurry as much as possible given that the New Voice is up in 4 turns? Or do we drag it out and milk what turns we have on North Estonia for every gold and shield production we can get before leaving? (ie 12-18 turns)

My preference - lets go for the short term. AND then I suspect we may be on frm ground to approach GS and say "hey have we got a deal - we clear out some 8-10 turns earlier than specified in the agreement, but we need cash. How about 10gpt for 20 turns?"

What do you think? Please comment before the next turn rolls around, as we will have to decide on Dissidentville this turn.

	27-06-2003 20:38									#34
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Government - I will run some tests between Republic and Monarchy with cities in our new land. I am sure Republic will beat Monarchy, but the tests will confirm. Also, on the Chieftan level we get four content citizens so it will be a while before we need to worry about happiness.

I completed my palace jump testing for our situation. It turns out I was wrong about the palace going to the largest city. It is jumping to Miller Town. My guess is that culture is what counts. Maybe in the past games when I noticed it always went to the largest city because that one also had the largest culture, or there may be some affect because Miller Town is our [b]only[\b] other city with culture. Maybe it is a combination of culture and size. Anyway, we will need to give Miller Town to GS before we do the palace jump. I would like to ask GS about disbanding Voice. Nathan mentioned about doing a free palace jump in one of his messages about the peace proposal. Also, I suspect they will want to move it to the coast. In the game are we still shown to be in a state of war or at peace? It complicates things if we need to switch back and forth to work out the city stuff. It would be easier to do it without GS conquering cities. The plan would be that we gift Dissidentville and Miller Town prior to the palace jump, then do the palace jump with Voice, and then gift HH to GS to teleport units to the new capital. All this will happen in less than 6 turns. In about 5 turns later we gift WC and BbtS to GS and are our of Estonia. This will happen a lot quicker than the turn requirement in our peace plan. GS may be willing to abandon Voice since they will be getting our cities much quicker.

Regarding my test, I am uploading my test file. I need to clean up my notes a bit. I will take some time at lunch to do that and post the instructions for anyone who wants to check it out themselves.

	27-06-2003 20:48									#35
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Beta, lots of stuff to think about if we are going to speed up the evacuation plan. I would like to gift Dissidentfille as soon as possible to get those units up north. Remember that the longer our new city in Legos Minor is there the more chances there are of a barbarian sacking the city. Having the save would be nice to look at to develop a detailed plan.

I don't think we will need financial help from GS. With my plan we will always have at least three cities and during our period of anarchy there are no unit maintenance costs. The question will be, how quickly can we get gold coming in once we get our of anarchy.

	27-06-2003 21:41									#36
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by HarryH Beta, lots of stuff to think about if we are going to speed up the evacuation plan. I would like to gift Dissidentfille as soon as possible to get those units up north. Remember that the longer our new city in Legos Minor is there the more chances there are of a barbarian sacking the city. Having the save would be nice to look at to develop a detailed plan. I don't think we will need financial help from GS. With my plan we will always have at least three cities and during our period of anarchy there are no unit maintenance costs. The question will be, how quickly can we get gold coming in once we get our of anarchy.

Harry - I will send the save as soon as I get home this evening. (yes - quiet day in the office today. )

As to the money from GS, they don't need to know that we don't need it.

But if it comes down to trading something for the early exodus, and you feel us being able to disband the Voice is worth more than say - 100 or 120 gold, then OK. Maybe we ask for both.

	27-06-2003 21:53									#37
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quote: Originally posted by HarryH Government - I will run some tests between Republic and Monarchy with cities in our new land. I am sure Republic will beat Monarchy, but the tests will confirm. Also, on the Chieftan level we get four content citizens so it will be a while before we need to worry about happiness.

Yes - but when we do - we will need luxuries - of which we will have none - or temples - which will be costly. And we will probably want to keep some sort of garrison in our towns anyways, as they are mostly coastal. I'm still not convinced republic is the way to go. The test will be interesting. I was going to do some sort of manual calc tonight.

quote: I completed my palace jump testing for our situation. It turns out I was wrong about the palace going to the largest city. It is jumping to Miller Town. My guess is that culture is what counts. Maybe in the past games when I noticed it always went to the largest city because that one also had the largest culture, or there may be some affect because Miller Town is our [b]only[\b] other city with culture. Maybe it is a combination of culture and size. Anyway, we will need to give Miller Town to GS before we do the palace jump. I would like to ask GS about disbanding Voice. Nathan mentioned about doing a free palace jump in one of his messages about the peace proposal. Also, I suspect they will want to move it to the coast. In the game are we still shown to be in a state of war or at peace? It complicates things if we need to switch back and forth to work out the city stuff. It would be easier to do it without GS conquering cities. The plan would be that we gift Dissidentville and Miller Town prior to the palace jump, then do the palace jump with Voice, and then gift HH to GS to teleport units to the new capital. All this will happen in less than 6 turns. In about 5 turns later we gift WC and BbtS to GS and are our of Estonia. This will happen a lot quicker than the turn requirement in our peace plan. GS may be willing to abandon Voice since they will be getting our cities much quicker.

I will raise the issue with GS, and see what we can do.

	27-06-2003 23:21									#38
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I am just not sure

I would like to be builidng on the new continent as soon as possible

but it would be nice to get as much as possible off of our old empire

Jon Miller

	27-06-2003 23:26									#39
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Beta Harry - I will send the save as soon as I get home this evening. (yes - quiet day in the office today. )

Any idea when the next turn will come to us? Can we put off playing that until sometime tomorrow so I have time to work on a pop-reduction plan tonight?

quote: As to the money from GS, they don't need to know that we don't need it.

True.

quote: But if it comes down to trading something for the early exodus, and you feel us being able to disband the Voice is worth more than say - 100 or 120 gold, then OK. Maybe we ask for both.

I am not sure if disbanding Voice and the early exodus are worth that much gold, but then I am not sure GS will give us that much. GS may be willing to do it if it makes the evacuation go quickly and smoothly. We can always ask and they can say yea, nay, or propose an alternate (like one or the other).

	28-06-2003 00:19									#40
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Here is the save file for the Voxudos test: http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Ha...xudos3950BC.SAV

It is setup as a three player hotseat game with no passwords so you get to play all civs. In the turn rotation Storm is first, Voxudos is second, and Lego is third. The Storm and Lego lands are not like in our game. They will suffice for test purposes. The Vox territory is from an old test I had with our setup. The populations are lower than we currently have in order to speed up the test.

Instructions:

All instructions are from the view of Vox unless I note they are for Storm or Lego.

Turn 3950

Move the 10 units next to Dissidentville into the city. Gift the city to Storm. Remember to accept the trade before sending. Note there are all types of units in the stack (e.g., workers, catapults, settlers, etc.).

Lego: move the settler and worker 3 tiles NW to the Merc in the middle.

Turn 3900

Storm: Accept the Dissidentville trade.

Wittlich City builds worker. Move one of its laborers to the mined hill. Move the two warriors on the hill into the city and disband then. It should produce the next worker in 2 turns.

Move the worker from Wittlich city down to the plans SW of Miller Town. The stack is heading that way.

Note that all 10 units from Dissidentville were teleported to The Voice. Move all of them to the plains tile SW of Miller Town where the rest of the units are.

Lego: Settler and worker continue moving NW.

turn 3850

Miller Town builds worker. Changes its remaining laborer to a tax collector.

Move the worker from Miller Town down next to Harrys Hideout. Move the stack of units next to Harrys Hideout.

Lego: Settler and worker move NW to their destination.

turn 3800

Wittlich City builds worker. Set its remaining laborer to a tax collector. Leave worker in city.

In The Voice change the laborer on the cow to a tax collector. This will stagnate growth. It should produce its worker on the next turn.

Gift Miller town to Storm. Remember to accept.

Lego: Found the city with the settler. Add the worker to the city (now pop 2). Gift the city to Voxudos (remember to accept).

turn 3750

Storm: Accept the Miller Town trade.

Accept the city from Lego.

The Voice tries to build worker. Choose to abandon city. Note our capital has now moved to the city by Lego. Move the worker to Wittlich City.

Move all units next to Harrys Hideout into the city. Gift the city to Storm (remember to accept).

Turn 3700

Storm: Accept the Harrys Hideout trade.

Note all of our units from Harrys Hideout were teleports to our new capital. The remaining two workers on Estonia will be handled in a few turns when we gift Wittlich City and Beta-by-the-Sea to Storm.

-----
OK, that is the end of my test scenario. It shows that the palace will jump to the new city from Lego if we trade Miller Town before we abandon The Voice. Note this is a clean way to do the evacuation and palace jump and we will always have at least three cities. I have a concern about doing it in a military way. Remember some time back after our first (the real) Bobian war that GoW could not make peace right away? There may be something in the game that may prevent going to war and then doing peace in less than a certain number of turns. If so, that would complicate matters of doing a palace jump by GS conquering the city and then us being able to gift a city to GS to teleport our units.

	05-07-2003 00:52									#41
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Harry - ack - sorry - I just saw this post. I'm not sure why it didn't show up as an unread post before. My apologies!

OK - I see your plan. We still need GS confirmation about abandoning the capitol.

It would be the cleanest way - as you have mentioned - declaring war and moving back to peace may cause some issues. I will need a chat with Nathan about this.

Also - it would appear that we have a few more turns to play with given the barbarian issues at Lego's end.

I will post my pop wind up plan next. The issue is Wittlich City.

	05-07-2003 01:20									#42
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OK - the pop wind down plan.

We currently have 2 settlers, and Immortal, and a Spearman in the two lead galleys. The trailing galleys are empty.

In Estonia - we have 2 settlers, 3 Immortals, 4 warriors, 3 Spears, and 8 Pikes.

Here is the wind-up schedule as I see it:

(now is 190bc, turn 1 will be 170bc, etc.)

The Voice - settler in 2 turns, worker in another 4 turns after that. Total 6 turns.

Note - what we do with the Voice will depend on whether we abandon it or not.

Miller Town - settler in 1 turn, worker in 3 turns after that. Total 4 turns.

HH - worker in 4 turns.

BbtS - worker in 2 turns.

Wittlich City - settler in 3 turns using the shileds from the 4 warriors. Worker in two turns after that, and another worker another two turns after that. Total - 7 turns. But pop is still at size 2. We can use 3 more turns to produce another worker - but that drags us out to 10 turns. So - I propose we use a spearman or two to speed up the process. Less units means less of a cash drain - but we will eventually need to rebuild them.

Using two spearmen - we can pump out the settler next turn, a worker two after that, and another two after that. Total 5 turns. And I would save one of the warriors to accelerate The Voices's worker build by one turn. Which would get it all done in 5 turns, and leave us with:

5 settlers, 13 workers, 3 Immortals, 1 Spear, and 8 Pikes. This excludes the 2 settlers and 2 units on the galleys.

So - cash in the spears? Or take a few extra turns?

The answer to this will depend on the mechanics of the transfer - which is the next discussion.

	05-07-2003 01:35									#43
	THE TRANSFER MECHANICS Enter the AD-FREE zone

Option 1: The Treaty Plan

Lego builds city. Gifts it to Vox.

GS possesses all our cities. CAPITOL JUMPS.

GS gifts us back a city. We move our units in. We gift it to GS. UNITS TRANSPORTED.

----------------------

Option 2: Harry's Plan

Lego builds city and gifts to Vox.

Vox gifts Miller Town to GS.

Vox abandons The Voice. CAPITOL JUMPS.

(question - if Wittlich City is not down to one pop - won't it simply jump there.)

Vox moves units into HH and gifts it to GS. UNITS TRANSPORTED.

WC and BbtS gifted a couple of turns later, and remaining workers are transported.

_______________

Option 3: Harry's Plan Modified

(if GS says no to abandoning The Voice.)

Lego builds city and gifts to Vox.

Vox gifts Miller Town to GS.

GS captures The Voice. CAPITOL JUMPS.

(question - same as above - if Wittlich City is not down to one pop - won't it simply jump there.)(This may imply that this all happens on turn 5, when WC is down to pop 1.)

Peace declared and accepted.

Vox moves units into HH and gifts it to GS. UNITS TRANSPORTED.

WC and BbtS gifted a couple of turns later, and remaining workers are transported.

The last two steps can be adjusted.

Anyone see any other options out there?

	08-07-2003 00:05									#44
	Put an end to popups!

I believe that if WC is not down to one pop the capital will jump there, either because it has the most pop or because it was founded first. I will run this through my test scenario to verify.

Are we currently at peace or war with GS. If we are at peace then war will start when GS takes Voice in either options 1 or 3. I will also check using my test scenario whether or not you can offer peace so quickly after starting a war.

	08-07-2003 00:12									#45
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Edit - Double post. Poly problems.

	08-07-2003 01:08									#46
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The last note from GS would indicate that they want to take The Voice intact. So - that means war.

And it also means all Estonian cities down to size 1 which should not be an issue, given the results of the poll. We will be out of here in 4 or 5 turns.

	08-07-2003 15:55									#47
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The 5 point plan worked out with nye last night. Everybody OK with this?

(also posted in the FA thread.)

5 Points
.notyoueither. 1. Vox 126. vox gifts all cities on Stormia (Estonia) to GS, save the Voice, as well as Engineering. Accepted.
.notyoueither. 2. GS 127. GS accepts cities and tech. Declares war. occupies The Voice. GS offers peace and Miller Town back, accepted.
.notyoueither. 3. Vox 127. Accepts peace and Miller Town. Moves all forces into Miller Town. Offers Miller Town, unnaccepted.
.notyoueither. 4. GS 127. GS offers 60 gold and accepts.
.notyoueither. 5. Vox accepts 60 gold for Miller Town and all forces *blip* to their new capital. The peace is final.
.Beta. Its a wrap.
.notyoueither. unless you want your troops gone one turn sooner, in which case offer miller town accepted
.notyoueither. up to you
.Beta. If that works - we will do it.
.notyoueither. it would.

	08-07-2003 20:38									#48
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I'm good with it. The sooner we get things over to Legos Minor the safer we'll be...in the long run.

	09-07-2003 00:46									#49
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I think step 4 should be GS 128, not GS 127.

Do we know what turn Lego will build the city and gift it to us?

Will all our pop reduction be done by turn 126?

I want to think about this a bit. Why do they want all the cities first?

	09-07-2003 02:21									#50
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Yes - it should be 128. nye corrected that before we signed off.

I will find out from Lego as to timing.

As to the cities - it was the original plan - and nye talked about ensuring the jump happened. Beyond that - unless you have a suspicious mind - I can't think why.

Are you thinking holding onto the two southern cities?

	09-07-2003 03:53									#51
	Remove this text

I wanted to hold onto the two southern cities for about four turns after the teleport of our units to Legos Minor. That gives us time to get other cities established and minimize our gpt problem. Since we are planning on changing governments during that period some of the turns will be anarchy which has no unit costs. That will minimize the problem. I will finish the government tests I started using a plan of no cities on Estonia.

	09-07-2003 09:33									#52
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I thought about it on the same home from work. I have a big on the deal.

What is the 60 gold for, engineering or evacuating early? Looks like they are getting one for free or really cheap on each one.

When they conquer Voice they will get some gold from our treasury.

With their plan we will go around 6 or 7 turns with only one city. With the number of units we have we will be running a good gpt deficit for those turns. We can reduce that a bit using the anarchy period of our government change but it will still cost us a lot of gold.

It looks like GS is getting our cities early, plus gold from our treasury, plus engineering for a measly 60 gold while we will be losing a lot of gold before we get new cities established.

Last edited by HarryH on 09-07-2003 at 09:45

	09-07-2003 10:52									#53
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He raises a good point. I completely forgot we wouldn't have more than one city for awhile ( ). What if we were to start the anarchy as soon as we gift the cities to GS? I just took another look at Vondrack's map and it will take five turns from The New Voice to actually settle five of the seven immediate towns around it (four for Irony and Poor Town). That is seven turns after gifting away the cities (six if you shave off the turn where the troops get 'ported to The New Voice.). In those turns we should be able to count on at least four turns of anarchy and free unit support. If we're lucky the anarchy will last six or seven turns and we'll come away with no gpt loss.

One possible addition to make to the GS treaty is to ask for our gold back when they conquer The Voice.

	09-07-2003 21:45									#54
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hmm - so good points.

First - regarding the gold from the treasury - we forgot completely about that. Thanks for bringing it up Harry. Two options - the cleanest is what Rhoth suggests - they simply give us the gold back. The second is to transfer our treasury to Lego - other than a nominal maintenance amout to keep us from losing units - and then they gift it back to us.

Second - the cities - we knew we would be facing the issue of a limited number of a cities for awhile. The original deal Eli cut with Shiber calls for the same thing. I can see if they will delay receiving two cities - but also note we will have a pile of cash.

We have 108 gold now. Plus we get 60 from GS in a lump sum. Plus 35 from GoW in 3 turns for engineering. Plus 100 from RP in a lump sum for engineering, and 5gpt for 20 turns. That is approximately 300 gold in the treasury at the point of transfer - plus the 5gpt. We should be OK. In fact we can calculate the cash flow pretty easily based on the number of units - and the turns to city builds, etc.

btw - we still owe Lego 75 but that has been deferred until we are settled and have the cash to spare.

	10-07-2003 00:38									#55
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OK. I re-read the peace treaty and I see where we give them Engineering. So the 60 gold is for the early evacuation. I propose this:

1. Vox 126. Vox gifts Miller Town and Engineering to GS, accepted. Vox moves all units adjacent to Harry's Hideout.

2. GS 127. GS accepts Miller Town and tech. Declares war. Occupies The Voice. (Voxian capital moves to new city on Legos Minor.) GS offers peace and the gold received from the Vox treasury when Voice was conquered, accepted.

3. Vox 127. Accepts peace. Moves all units next to HH into the city. Vox gifts HH to GS, accepted.

4. GS 128. GS accepts HH. (All Vox units in HH jump to new capital).

5. Vox 130. Vox trades Beta-by-the-Sea and Wittlich City to GS, unaccepted.

6. GS 131. GS adds 60 gold to the trade and accepts.

7. Vox 131. Vox accepts trade. The peace is final.

In the GS plan we have only the city on Legos Minor at the start of each turn from 127 to 131 for a total of 5 city-turns. With my plan we start 127 with 4 cities and the other turns with 3 for a total of 16 city-turns. That is a difference of 44 gold just in unit maintenance costs (plus commerce, wealth, and tax collectors). GS still gets the Voice (with its granary and food tiles) and Miller Town just as quickly. With HH they will have a road network from Elipolis to Voice. Our units arrive in Lego Minor on the same turn in both plans. If necessary, we can move steps 5-7 up a turn.

	10-07-2003 03:14									#56
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Proposal sent to GS. Thanks Harry!

For this to work - I need to keep WC from grwing to size 4 at the same time as the settler is produced. No problem - I can use an unimproved hill tile. Will cost 1 gold - but so be it.

	10-07-2003 05:27									#57
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If we do not need the shields from the unimproved hill tile you could turn one citizen into a tax collector. It will cause a food shortage for a couple of turns. That should not be a problem as it will just use up a little of the stockpile.

	10-07-2003 06:34									#58
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The problem is that we need one shield, but not two food from that citizen. The hill tile fits the bill - but will cost us one gold. No big deal.

	10-07-2003 21:31									#59
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

looks like the vac is going well

Jon Miller

	11-07-2003 01:02									#60
	Put an end to popups!

I wanted to post a few notes about my government testing. It looks like Monarchy will be the way to go. The difference in corrupting in the close cities is small and the extra commerce of Republic does not overtake the free units of Monarchy until the cities grow. Many of the cities will be slow growers until the harbors are built. I am working on a plan that does this: We ask Lego for Theology just before we get Engineering so we can do Printing Press as our next tech. Lego works on Education (they may already have it) and Banking. After Printing Press we go for Democracy. During our resettlement we switch governments to Monarchy and stay there until we get Democracy. By then we should have our cities established, harbors built, maybe a few libraries, and the cities have grown enough to where the commerce benefit of Republic/Democracy over Monarchy will provide more benefit than the free units in Monarcny.

It looks like we will have 2 turns of anarchy (maybe we should plan for 3 turns just in case). Until our new cities are settled Despotism is best. So we count back 3 turns from when the cities will be settled and start our government switch then.