16-06-2003 19:05									#1
	The New and Improved Evacuation Plan Increase Your PM Length

8-9 turns from now a Lego settler and a worker will reach the site of The New Voice.
The worker will join the city.

Then Lego will gift us the city.

The city will be size 2 and we'll use the extra pop to rush a worker.

During all that time we will be producing more and more workers.

As soon as The New Voice is established, we will be able to gift Lego all the workers we produced.
Lego might use the workers for their own purposes as long as we dont need them. Maybe they'll pave a road to Lego Minor.
When all our population is transferred, Lego will pass the workers back to us. Either by gifting them, or by letting us take them(will require a declaration of war).

Now, the good part :
When all our population is transferred, we will move all the military units we are allowed to keep to some tile outside all of our cities.
Then we'll gift all cities except The Voice and The New Voice to GS and GS will conquer The Voice. After that the palace to automatically jump to The New Voice.

Then GS will gift us back one of our cities and we'll move all our military units into it.

And now, read carefully, we will gift that city to GS.
When a city that contains units is gifted to another civ, the units inside the city transport automatically to the Capitol, in this case, The New Voice... And Voila! Instant Teleportation! No need for ships.

(Credit for the teleportation idea goes to GS)

	16-06-2003 20:08									#2
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I think I like it.

	16-06-2003 23:17									#3
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ok, I think I can do this

Jon Miller

	16-06-2003 23:27									#4
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Sounds great. (although the purist in me frowns at how they allowed such silliness in the game. Here we are in the middle ages with a technology closer to Star Trek. )

One question - what do we need to transport workers. I moved one into The Voice last turn and tried to gift it to Lego. Could not.

Do we need an embassy? Do-able.

Trade route? Not.

The worker must start that turn in our capitol. Do-able.

Where's my civ mnual.....

If it is a trade route - we could the help of GoW to do this. But we would still have some distance to go at the other end.

	16-06-2003 23:47									#5
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We need to have a city on Lego's continent.

	17-06-2003 02:47									#6
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*sigh* I hate to leave

	17-06-2003 04:00									#7
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A city on Lego's continent should not matter. I have traded workers with civs without having a city on their continent. I will run some tests. It is either an embassy or trade route thing.

I would like to rearrange things a bit. First is to build some settlers and get our cities down in pop while at the same time the city on Legos Minor grows. Then we disband Voice so our capital moves to Legos Minor. All of our units move into a city which we gift to GS so the units teleport to Legos Minor. The setters move out to found new cities. Once the new cities are founded we gift the remaining Estonia cities to GS. This way we always have cities and avoid a gpt problem that could automatically disband our units. I saw the message in the Lego FA thread that indicates about eight turns to them gifting us a size 2 city. We might be able to time the teleportation of the units to coincide with that with the gifting of the other cities about 5 turns after (some may be able to be gifted before then).

	17-06-2003 22:05									#8
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RE: Worker trade

Eli may be right about needing a city on Lego's continent. I ran some tests last night. I was able to trade a worker to civs on my continent, whether or not I actually had a trade route with them or even a known route to them. I could not trade a worker to a civ on an island that was blocked by sea even when one or both of us had astronomy. If we need a city on their continent then our workers may have to wait and be teleported with the military units.

	21-06-2003 05:33									#9
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OK - I did a bit of a head count earlier.

We have 4 barracks we can trade in at 5 gold each. And two temples at 7 gold each. That brings us 34 gold.

We cannot cash in the granary or the harbor as per the terms of the treaty.

One spear has left the continent before the treaty is signed. Another leaves next turn.

We have 8 pikes - all in the south.

We have 4 spears - one on the galley - two in Wittlich - and one in the south.

We have 4 warriors - all in the south.

We have 9 immortals - the two elites are in the galley in Harry's Hideout - (and I have informed GS of that last turn. They would see them gone anyway. No need to get cute now.) - and 7 in the south.

So - we have 5 immortals too many - each can be cashed in for 5 shields each - and 4 warriors - I presume at 2 shields each. That is 43 shields.

The cashing in should be done up north. It would be nice to create a vet galley or two - to give our navy a headstart - but we would need GS permission to do that.

Still waiting to hear from GS on the peace treaty.

	21-06-2003 08:30									#10
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Ok. Thanks for the update Beta.

	22-06-2003 00:48									#11
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Once we have confirmation with GS on the peace treaty then we should cash in the barracks. We will not have a need for them. We get the gold and reduce our maintenance costs.

The temples are still producing culture for our civ. We can either trade them in now to reduce maintenance or wait until we give the cities to GS.

I spent some time worker on a spreadsheet of info on how our population would be reduce by creating workers and settlers based on the pic of the 310bc turn. If we stagnate the growth of Wittlich City (the largest city and the longest to reduce to one pop) all cities could be reduced to one pop in 13 turns. Using 3 warriors to disband in Wittlich city we could save 3 turns so we would be ready by turn 10. I would like to save the rest of the units for disbandonment in Legos Minor if we can. At that time we could be ready to do a palace jump. I think Legos would be ready with our city at that time as well.

Here is how it would work:

• We reduce all our cities to one pop. The Voice may be at one or two pop. The Voice is setup to build its last pop into a worker or settler and be abandoned when the build occurs. Our northern units are positioned near Harry's Hideout or Beta-by-the-Sea. Just for a reference point call this turn 10 (actual turn may vary). Legos builds us a new city and adds a worker to make it size 2. Legos gifts the city to us.
  
• On our turn we accept the city. The Voice builds its unit and is abandoned. Our palace jumps to Legos Minor. All of our northern units move into either Harry's Hideout or Beta-by-the-Sea. Note the unit just produced in The Voice will not make it. It will hang around North Estonia for a few more turns. We gift the city our units moved into to GS. This is turn 11.
  
• GS accepts our city. Our units are teleported to Legos Minor.
  
• Our units start exploring Legos Minor. Settlers and their escorts head to city sites. In the next four to 5 turns our settlers create new cities. Once we have three additional cities established we move any remaining units in North Estonia into a city and gift the remaining North Estonia cities to GS. Turns 12 to 17.
  

	24-06-2003 04:24									#12
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OK - questions and comments.

Harry - to start with, if I have got you plan correct, it involves the palace jum to Legos. But I don't see how that will happen if we still have a city on Estonia.

The way I see it is that we do everything at once - the palace jump and the unit moves. I presume that will work.

Also - do workers transfer when you gift a city. I am asking about Dissidentville here. We can get a worker produced in the next handful of turns. Which is what it will take to get all the southern units there to transfer north.

So - if we have a worker in that crowd - will he transfer as well?

As I said before - I have never dismantled a civ before - so please - can we discuss the mechanics.

	24-06-2003 05:49									#13
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I too am rather interested in how we will go about doing this since I too have never tried it before.

	25-06-2003 04:20									#14
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First, the palace jump. The palace jumps to the city with the largest population. If all our cities are reduced to size 1 and the city Lego gives us is size 2 then the palace will jump to the Lego city.

You can not jump the palace and teleport the units at the same time. The palace jump occurs when the city is abandoned (i.e., produce a worker/settler that reduces the pop to size 0 when there is no + food/turn) or by an enemy conquering the city. Units teleport when a city if gifted to another civ. You can not do both at once.

What I seem to be gathering from the various posts in all the threads is that the plan is to gift all our Estonia cities to GS and then have them conquer Voice to force the palace jump. Then GS gifts a city back to us to move our units into. We gift the city back to GS to teleport our units. The problem with this plan is that we will have only the city on Legos Minor for a couple of turns during the palace jump and gifting process, plus additional turns before our settlers that were teleported to Legos Minor to move out and establish new cities. During that period we will be running -20gpt (or more) in unit support, leading to a loss of 100 to 150 gold. With my plan we will always have some cities so the loss will be much smaller (or none).

Workers - they should teleport just like other units. Have you set the laborer in Dissidentville to work a tile and produce food? You will need to get the city to size 2 before the worker can be built. We need the city to be at least size 1 so we can gift it to GS and teleport the units northward.

Since there are some questions, what I will do tonight is put together a scenario that will show (and prove) my plan. I will also create step by step instructions to go with the scenario. After I verify the plan using the scenario I will upload it here so anyone who has questions can run it themselves and see what happens.

	25-06-2003 06:22									#15
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Harry - thanks!! I understand everything you have posted. Yes - I like your plan better. And yes - I have the Dissidentville citizen back out working a tile. 5 turns to city growth IIRC.

	25-06-2003 06:37									#16
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Thanks in advance for your research Harry.

	26-06-2003 00:22									#17
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I didn't quite get my test scenario complete. I will finish it tonight.

	26-06-2003 18:23									#18
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OK - governments. Diss asked about this in the Moves thread - but I think we should discuss it here as part of our evac strategy.

We are obviously still in despotism. It would seem we will have an opportune time to switch governments while we are in transit - or just after the teleport of all our units from Estonia. We will have one city. With settlers to fan out. Three or four turns of anarchy is not going to matter much at that point.

We are going to have to make sure we have sufficient cash banked to carry us through this period.

Also - do we go to Republic or Monarchy?

	26-06-2003 18:52									#19
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Republic of course.

	26-06-2003 20:04									#20
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I concur - Republic.

	26-06-2003 21:57									#21
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Relevant excerpts from vondrack's recent message.

quote: BTW, not sure what your plans are, but I would suggest disbanding most of your military units in order to speed up or better yet, increase settler production... every extra settler counts, while extra military (over 1 unit per city) will be pretty much useless. Barbarians can be handled by anything with defense over 1... and we will publicly announce that your settlements on Legos Minor are under our protection, so anyone attacking you there will have to deal with our military in the first place. .......... Timeline for The New Voice: 250 BC (T116): settler+worker+escort 3 tiles from the destination 225 BC (T117): settler+worker+escort 2 tiles from the destination 200 BC (T118): settler+worker+escort 1 tile from the destination 175 BC (T119): settler+worker+escort arrive at the destination site 150 BC (T120): The New Voice founded, worker joins it, city immediately gifted to you So, you should receive the city in 125 BC (T121). I just hope there will be no delay - barbs COULD delay it slightly, if things go wrong. The city WILL be founded in 150 BC, no matter what. The question is whether its immediate vicinity will be barb-free for that 1 turn we will need to safely hand the control of the city to you. If the delay is a problem, there is always the possibility of letting barbs sack the city. Up to you to decide.

Comments?

	26-06-2003 22:27									#22
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He is using 25 years between turns. Our moves are going at 20 years between turns. Please have him verify and update. I am using the year to make plans.

I need to get a save so I can put together turn-by-turn details to get my plan to coincide with the new city.

Governments - Republic. I will work 3 turns of anarchy into my plan. Good idea to do the switch then.

I didn't quite get my test scenario done. A few more tweeks to get it to play right. (Need to put a Scout in Legoland to get communications so the city can be gifted. Doh. ).

	26-06-2003 22:33									#23
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I don't need the next save. The one from the last turn should do.

	27-06-2003 04:17									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Republic of course.

OK - I gotta ask why. Corruption levels are the same in both. So we are weighing the advantage of 1 extra commerce per tile vs the the cost of maintaining units. In the early days this will favor monarchy. And if we start to accumulate - say a navy - this will still favor monarchy. We have lots of sea tiles producing commerce - but I still say the comparison might favor monarchy.

And with few luxuries and no temples or cathedrals and no happiness wonders, maintaining content citizens will be a chore. We will need to use police.

And - when (notice I did not say if, ) we go to war again, monarchy will be better (unless the no war weariness bug still exists - or did the last upgrade take care of it?)

So - my instinct tells me monarchy - but let's hear the arguments for republic.

	27-06-2003 04:19									#25
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quote: Originally posted by HarryH He is using 25 years between turns. Our moves are going at 20 years between turns. Please have him verify and update. I am using the year to make plans.

Will do - but I think it safe to assume from his commentray following the turn number - that it is 4 turns from now. Which is sooner than I thought it would be.

	27-06-2003 04:30									#26
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The main reason I'm leaning towards Republic is for the boost in research rate...Though Beta makes a valid point concering garrisons having no effect on happiness under Republic vice Monarchy...

	27-06-2003 04:48									#27
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Harry - back to your plan - and we need Eli's input here - I am not sure GS would appreciate us disbanding The Voice. It has a granary in it. Besides - it is contrary to the agreement.

How about we reduce all our other cities in Estonia to 1, the new city in Legos Minor is pop 2, we have GS take The Voice - The palace jump should go to Legos. We can then gift cities over a set period of time to even out the cash flow situation. A variation on the all-at-once plan. Will this work?

	27-06-2003 04:50									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich The main reason I'm leaning towards Republic is for the boost in research rate...Though Beta makes a valid point concering garrisons having no effect on happiness under Republic vice Monarchy...

We can use cheap libraries and universities to boost research as well.

	27-06-2003 15:07									#29
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Re : Goverment.

Happiness is manageable. Low research rate is not.

	27-06-2003 16:12									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Re : Goverment. Happiness is manageable. Low research rate is not.

Research rate is a function of how much gold we have, and as I discussed earlier, we may actually end up with more gold under monarchy.