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Vesayen
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If you want to argue the existance of god, etc.. bring it to another thread, have a serious question.
As much as I argue about religion, I try to do my best to understand others, I've read the Koran and the Christian bible several times, but I've always had ONE thing about Christianity I didnt understand.
You say that, Jesus died for our sins right?
The idea of sacrafices for Jew's at the time was to give up something precious to God by destroying(burning) it to show your devotion-since cattle/certain wheats were often use as currency, they were most often used as sacrafices.
There is a specific list of what animals to be used, and when and in what circumstances, how etc... humans are of coruse explicitly forbiden from being sacraficed.
Christians claim that Jesus allowed himself to be killed, thus making his sacrafice all the more impressive.
How was Jesus "killing himself" denying the rest of the world of something precious?
Heck most people didnt even know he existed at the time.
If most people at the time didnt know he existed, and they had no active hand in causing him to die, or stopping him, dosent that mean that they werent giving up something precious to show their love of God?
Sacrafices werent "insert quarter be forgiven" kinda thing, it was only part of what was needed. True sorrow for what you have done is needed.
The profit Samuel rebukes King Sal for commiting sings all willy nilly, then just doing sacrafices to "clense himself". Its supposed to be part of a lesson that piety is superior to ritual.
How does Jesus killing himself result in others giving up something "precious" to show their devotion to God? A "permanent sin pass" seems to go against all the teachings of the time.
Was that coherant? Rambled a bit heh.
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Vesayen
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quote:
Originally posted by obiwan18
Vesayen:
God sending His son to die certainly goes against the teachings of the time, and the Jewish sacrificial system, requiring regular sacrifices to atone for sins.
Paul argues against your characterisation of Christ's death as a permanent sin pass, because it requires faith in Christ for forgiveness. If you love someone, you will do what they say. Therefore, one will do what God commands because you trust and love Him. By sinning, you show that you do not care about what God wants you to do. |
??? I honestly dont understand what your trying to say heh.
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Vesayen
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quote:
Originally posted by Big Crunch
We were all damned with original sin before we knew about it, why not sacrifice Jesus long before we knew about him?
quote:
How was Jesus "killing himself" denying the rest of the world of something precious?
Heck most people didnt even know he existed at the time.
If most people at the time didnt know he existed, and they had no active hand in causing him to die, or stopping him, dosent that mean that they werent giving up something precious to show their love of God?
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Do you consider the death of many soldiers on the Allies side of WW2 a sacrifice? Most people never heard of the men involved, their deaths still had great importance and meaning. See the connection I'm alluding to? |
To be honest no heh. I see the analogy your using, but your over-drawing the analogy between somethingsecular and something holy, where it dosent fit.
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Vesayen
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quote:
Originally posted by Big Crunch
We were all damned with original sin before we knew about it, why not sacrifice Jesus long before we knew about him?
quote:
How was Jesus "killing himself" denying the rest of the world of something precious?
Heck most people didnt even know he existed at the time.
If most people at the time didnt know he existed, and they had no active hand in causing him to die, or stopping him, dosent that mean that they werent giving up something precious to show their love of God?
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Do you consider the death of many soldiers on the Allies side of WW2 a sacrifice? Most people never heard of the men involved, their deaths still had great importance and meaning. See the connection I'm alluding to? |
Hmmm I'll try to explain why the analogy dosent fit.
God can do whatever he wants. He sets the rules, he can break the rules, he can change the rules and do anything.
The soldiers died, because only their deaths would of ensured victory for WW2 on the allied side.
God isnt restricted in any way, therefor there was no need for a sacrafice to "do" anything-God could of done it anyway.
Did that make sense?
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Vesayen
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quote:
Originally posted by Big Crunch
quote:
The soldiers died, because only their deaths would of ensured victory for WW2 on the allied side. |
The story goes that only Jesus' death could save us.
That negates your statement that God can do anything he chooses. It may be that He technically could but other self-imposed constraints mean that He can't. |
So God is somehow forced, by his own rules to stop himself from forgiving our sins, but he wants to? So he puts forth a series of events which results in Jesus dying, thus freeing his hand?
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Vesayen
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Lets start over heh, I'll simplify my question, you can give a simpler answer if you wish.
How does Jesus dying, forgive our sins?
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germanos
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behind a firm ****, Rotterdam, NL
Apr 2002
time: 06:28
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IIRC, Jesus death has very little to do with our private sins, and thus Jesus death does not create forgiveness for our sins.
Jesus death was done by god, to take away the 'inheritable (?) sin' from humaniny.
The inheritable sin, or original sin, being the sin brought upon humanity by Adam and Eve spoiling the paradise.
God doomed them after eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, and humans would be sinners for ever since.
God send his son to humanity, in order to take back the doom he had cast upon humanity, so that from then on, people would be responsible only for their own sins, and not from the one their great-great parents had committed in paradise.
So Jesus death does not bring you forgiveness from your own sins, but it brings forgiveness for Adam and Eve's sin in paradise.
At least, that is what I figured it was all about.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by obiwan18
Good question Vesayen 
CS Lewis uses the analogy of a bridge.
One of the problems with the Jewish sacrificial system is that one must continue to sacrifice for forgiveness from sins.
The problem is that the sacrifice cannot be sufficient to atone for sin.
Jesus satisfies the requirements because he is sinless, yet suffered the same temptations as we do. As God, his death allows men to reach God, as a man, he allows God to reach us. |
Please note while i do not contest your statements as valid within the assumptions and system of the christian religion, from the standpoint of Judaism:
1. The "jewish" system is God's system for the Jewish people not a "jewish system"
2. Sacrifice for sin needs to be repeated, just as faith must be maintained. And repentance must be repeated.
3. The modern "jewish" system is based on repentance, prayer and acts of charity. Sincere repentance is sufficient to achieve atonement.
4. The question of atonement for original sin, as opposed to individual sin, is not meaningful in Judaism, which does not hold a concept of original sin.
5. The general approach to individual sin is different, since Judaism does not ask humans for divine perfection, but to acheive their potentials as human beings (see Nachmanides) . Ergo repentance with a goal of meeting Gods expectations is possible - man is not inevitably condemned for sin - though individuals should still repent as if they were sinners, both becuase no man can see all his own sins, and because as members of a community, we have responsibility for the sins of all.
And of course forgive me for any errors in the above post
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16-06-2003 23:23
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