17-06-2003 07:11									#1
	I'm so glad I can do sums without a calculator Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'm really glad I was educated before calculators and computers came on the scene. I can do sums in my head or with a pencil - add, subtract, multiply, divide. I know all the basic tricks for mental arithmetic like rounding to 10 and dropping zeros. I knew my times tables off by heart up to 12 - but I'm a little hazy on that now. And I was never very interested in maths but thanks to all those teachers who gave me a good grounding in the basics. I use them every day.

I always know how much change I should get back when I buy something. Sometimes I give cashier extra coins so I get notes back - some of them look at you blankly when you say "I'll give you $10.20 and you give me 5 dollars back". I can work out how far we have to travel and how long it will take by calculating distance and speed. If I haggle with someone I know exactly where I am in the numbers - what 20% off is in dollars. I can work out the odds for a bet and how much I will get back in dollars if my horse comes in, even at obscure odds like 5 to 4 or 7 to 2. Its very valuable in everyday life.

I was trying the explain some shortcuts to one of my kids when I was helping him with his homework and he just burst into tears - it wasn't the way he was being taught. He didn't seem to have a concrete idea about numbers in his head the way I do, even when I said stuff like "if you have 6 apples and take away 2, what do you have left?". I had to draw the damn apples!

Somebody just brought me some figures for a total payment we have to make of over 6 million dollars. I could just tell by glancing at the numbers that they were wrong. And sure enough, when I went through them on paper with a pencil, they were! Then I spent 10 minutes going through the numbers with him, adding them up, checking them with a calculator - but my trusty pencil didn't lie.

Its scary to think some adults can't even add up numbers without the aid of a calculator. I think those that can have a big advantage in life - but it seems to be a dying art.

Can you kids count without a calculator or computer?

	17-06-2003 07:21									#2
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of course

I rarely use a calculator

I use to be better though, I can nolonger do multiple operations of division and multiplication of greater than 3 digit numbers in my head (well, I can, but I would not trust them afterwards)

Jon Miller

	17-06-2003 07:23									#3
	Re: I'm so glad I can do sums without a calculator Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I was trying the explain some shortcuts to one of my kids when I was helping him with his homework and he just burst into tears - it wasn't the way he was being taught. He didn't seem to have a concrete idea about numbers in his head the way I do, even when I said stuff like "if you have 6 apples and take away 2, what do you have left?". I had to draw the damn apples!

Why didn't you or your wife teach him this before he went to school? My parents were shitty for the most part, but at least my mother gave me some math practice books when I was little and then threatended to beat me with them if I didn't do that work.

	17-06-2003 07:27									#4
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We're sort of doing that. But then its a drama because "that's not how the teacher said to do it". When you are 8 the teacher is God.

Even when I drew the apples or sheep or whatever and counted then one by one he didn't get it. The numbers are not in his head yet. They aren't real to him.

I ended up with a page of little columns of apples being added and subtracted or divided into little groups which I understood perfectly

	17-06-2003 07:30									#5
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it really is sad, calculators are being used for way too much in schools nowadays.... they're almost useless in math, kids and teachers are becoming dependant on them - an elementary understand of numbers is almost as important as reading and writing

the only thing calculators are useful for are mindless long calculations and those shouldn't be part of school anyway! math is so much more interesting without calculators - if all you learn is how to operate a calculator you've really learned nothing

	17-06-2003 07:32									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse We're sort of doing that. But then its a drama because "that's not how the teacher said to do it". When you are 8 the teacher is God. Even when I drew the apples or sheep or whatever and counted then one by one he didn't get it. The numbers are not in his head yet. They aren't real to him. I ended up with a page of little columns of apples being added and subtracted or divided into little groups which I understood perfectly

That is why you should have done it BEFORE 8. Like soon after he learned how to read.

	17-06-2003 07:37									#7
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quote: it really is sad, calculators are being used for way too much in schools nowadays.... they're almost useless in math, kids and teachers are becoming dependant on them - an elementary understand of numbers is almost as important as reading and writing

It's not only the dependency that is a problem, math helps you train and develop your mind. Never doing this as a little can set you behind for life. The first years are the most important ones.

	17-06-2003 07:48									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse That is why you should have done it BEFORE 8. Like soon after he learned how to read.

Thanks - I'll bear that in mind when I have my life the second time around

	17-06-2003 07:49									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Even when I drew the apples or sheep or whatever and counted then one by one he didn't get it. The numbers are not in his head yet. They aren't real to him.

I think numbers are not his main problem. it seems he simply can't visualise objects in his head and manipulate them. Maybe you should check this first.

	17-06-2003 07:52									#10
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That's what I mean. But he's got over that now.

Mrs Horse is a maths whiz but not a good teacher. I'm a maths phobic, but I can count better than her

	17-06-2003 07:57									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Soul Survivor it really is sad, calculators are being used for way too much in schools nowadays.... they're almost useless in math, kids and teachers are becoming dependant on them - an elementary understand of numbers is almost as important as reading and writing the only thing calculators are useful for are mindless long calculations and those shouldn't be part of school anyway! math is so much more interesting without calculators - if all you learn is how to operate a calculator you've really learned nothing

At my uni, calculators are banned. mostly because all electronic devices are not allowed (due to them being more and more like computers with ersonal info etc = possibility of cheating)

On very rare circumstances, professors would allow scientific calculators to be allowed for the exam... but Even most math classes run their exams electronics-free.

Im used to it, since I was the kid in HS who ALWAYS forgot his calculator for his tests.

	17-06-2003 07:58									#12
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I am actually very, very fast doing sums and products (and division, unless by six ) in my head. I just USUALLY do it on my 83+ (when handy).

	17-06-2003 08:00									#13
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I'm very quick with math as well. Even after I graduated high school, I worked as a manager at a Pizza Hut, and I could do the closing numbers almost flawlessly without a calculator, although I still check my numbers to avoid error just to be safe.

	17-06-2003 08:01									#14
	Re: Re: I'm so glad I can do sums without a calculator Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Why didn't you or your wife teach him this before he went to school? My parents were shitty for the most part, but at least my mother gave me some math practice books when I was little and then threatended to beat me with them if I didn't do that work.

ah at least my parents gave all the love in the beginning.. then it just started to wane as they became more and more convinced I wouldnt be the next Newton-Einstein they'd hope I'd be.

	17-06-2003 08:08									#15
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i was never good at speed. I would not dare count, calc, money fast as I can, cause I would be too worried about making a mistake. If I did fast, Id have to re-check it cause I'd be so paranoid about the error anyway, so I take my sweet time.

I have no problem visualizing concepts, but Im not really fast wit math.

Needless to say, I hate tests that base on how fast you solved them. I like thinking things thru

	17-06-2003 08:17									#16
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Well I am glad too. All off my school years I've had the option of using a calculator; though for the most part I never did; they are too slow.

Anyway, now I am at uni I am not allowed to use a calculator for my exams; and have an incredible advantage because of it .



If your child can't visualise counting apples or sheep now, teach him quick, or he will have the most incredible problems understanding the concepts of algebra.

	17-06-2003 08:24									#17
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You can't trust calculators - I always check. I just did some sums and the little calculator I was using just dropped the numbers after the decimal point when it ran out of screen - no rounding up or down!!!!

	17-06-2003 08:26									#18
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what kind of ghetto ass calculator were you using AH?

	17-06-2003 08:26									#19
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that's what 83's are for - they store floating-point numbers in 18 bytes... a whole lotta accuracy (even if you don't see it past).

Plus, it's very easy to do multiple sequential computations, as it is a graphing calculator.

	17-06-2003 08:57									#20
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I'm really glad I was educated before calculators and computers came on the scene. I can do sums in my head or with a pencil - add, subtract, multiply, divide. I know all the basic tricks for mental arithmetic like rounding to 10 and dropping zeros. I knew my times tables off by heart up to 12 - but I'm a little hazy on that now. And I was never very interested in maths but thanks to all those teachers who gave me a good grounding in the basics. I use them every day.

Bah. If you give me enough time, I can multiply arbitrarirly-long integers in my head.:P

I always know how much change I should get back when I buy something. Sometimes I give cashier extra coins so I get notes back - some of them look at you blankly when you say "I'll give you $10.20 and you give me 5 dollars back".

* St Leo punches AH

I hate people like you.:P I work part-time in a fast-food place right now and as a result I can calculate change for a $5, $10, $20, or whatever instantly. You have a couple minutes to mull over the calculation in your head. I have to do it very fast because there are ten other people in line. Grrr.

Of course, my coworkers are innumerate. I had a five minute argument the other night trying to prove that "18 - 30%" equalled "18*.7". They couldn't even do it with a calculator. Idiots.

	17-06-2003 09:21									#21
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I am good with math, but sometimes use a calculator to save time.

	17-06-2003 09:23									#22
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I'm a wiz at math. I rarely use a calculator.

But I fail to see the importance of math in the every day world. Basic math sure, but beyond that...

	17-06-2003 09:25									#23
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In my childs school, calculators are banned....

	17-06-2003 09:38									#24
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I use a calculator if I need to, but for the most part I'm better than the vast majority of people I know. Some things just instantly appear in my head, without me even having to think about the question. Other times I use a wide variety of tricks of my own or my father's devising.

The only people I know that can do mental math faster than me are my brothers. But, well, my oldest brother is trying to become a math teacher, so you gotta expect that sorta thing.

	17-06-2003 09:59									#25
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This is not math, people. This is basic arithematic operations.

	17-06-2003 12:57									#26
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Indeed.

I can do add/sub/div/mul with a paper and pencil ( duh! I was in primary school, amazing isn't it? ), but admittedly, I almost never do so, with a calculator lying around.

	17-06-2003 12:59									#27
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a lot of people can't do it - that's the point.

	17-06-2003 13:06									#28
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really?

	17-06-2003 13:08									#29
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yeah - I don't think there's anything clever about being able to do primary school level sums any more than you do - except fo the fact that a surprising number of people cannot do them.

	17-06-2003 13:13									#30
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That's very disturbing, AH. We're notorious for the awfulness of our primary school, and even here cashiers always ask for spare coins, so they can give change in round numbers.

But since all that people need is practice, I don't think there is something to worry about.