17-06-2003 09:35									#1
	Monkspider's spirituality corner: Is there a hell? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

A certain famous Poly user PM'ed me with my thoughts on this matter, and I would have responded via PM, but the lazy bum's inbox was full, so I thought it would be just as well to create a thread on the subject. If he would like to reveal his identity to everyone, that is fine, if not, then it is no biggie either.

I responded to his PM with this:

Hi Mr. X, Sure, I believe in a hell. Probably not the one you are thinking of though, that is the hell of eternal fire and torment and the whole bit.
The hell I was referring to is the hell of being too ashamed to face your creator, being too ashamed to look at what you did in this life. This hell is not eternal by any means, but without question the absolute least pleasent state of existence that we can experience. I know you probably disagree, and that' s cool. I just think you will be pleasently surprised to find that God is a much nicer guy than some people make him out to be.

Thanks for the correspondance,
Dustin (monkspider)

So in short, there actually is no lake of fire, no gnashing of teeth, etc. God could never do such a thing if, it's absolutely beyond his character God is absolute, unconditional love, and that means loving us all for what we are, warts and all. If you still have any doubts, consider this, if you were God, would you send anyone, much less, large percentages of Earth's population, to suffer eternally? Certainly, I would not, and God is a much nicer guy than me.

Anyway, I know a lot of you probably still disagree, and hey, no worries. But if the original Polyer who PM'ed me or if anyone else had any questions, I would be happy to answer them.

	17-06-2003 09:42									#2
	Re: Monkspider's spirituality corner: Is there a hell? Support Apolyton

No. There is no hell.

We all go through a cycle......Once we become good enough, the cycle ends and we ascend.

	17-06-2003 09:51									#3
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quote: We all go through a cycle......Once we become good enough, the cycle ends and we ascend.

But id we don't know what the qualifications are, how are we supposed to improve?
We just start over in the hope that some life we get it right by accident.
That's like saying someone is a good gambler because he won the lotery.

	17-06-2003 09:53									#4
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quote: Originally posted by alva But id we don't know what the qualifications are, how are we supposed to improve?

We know what the qualifications are. One must be a good person. We find this out through the spiritual journey.

	17-06-2003 09:56									#5
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I hope there is no hell. because I'm most certainly heading in that direction

	17-06-2003 09:57									#6
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quote: We know what the qualifications are. One must be a good person.

But just what makes a good person?

	17-06-2003 09:59									#7
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quote: Originally posted by alva quote: We know what the qualifications are. One must be a good person. But just what makes a good person?

Love.

The answers are all within Alva. You must only learn to seek them.

	17-06-2003 10:01									#8
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quote: I hope there is no hell. because I'm most certainly heading in that direction

That's the beaty of catholisism, all you have to do a second before you die is repent and all is well.
However, live a perfect life, swear and a second later a car runs you over and it's hell for you dude.

	17-06-2003 10:14									#9
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider The answers are all within Alva. You must only learn to seek them.

	17-06-2003 10:14									#10
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Have you ever been to Los Angeles? If so, I think you'll find Hell to be somewhat superfluous.

quote: The answers are all within Alva.

Well no wonder I couldn't find them! I wasn't looking within Alva!

	17-06-2003 10:18									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Giant_Squid Have you ever been to Los Angeles? If so, I think you'll find Hell to be somewhat superfluous. Well no wonder I couldn't find them! I wasn't looking within Alva!

Well, I guess that was an instance where a comma would have been useful.

	17-06-2003 10:22									#13
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quote: Love. The answers are all within Alva. You must only learn to seek them.

So someone who loves killing is a good person?
-
BTW: Tass said originally 'good enough', that implies being good at something, does it not? So I'll rephrase.
Good at what?

	17-06-2003 10:28									#14
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Anyway, to go a little bit more in depth on Alva's question, there are no exact guidelines which dictate what a good person is. For example, you do not have to help old ladies cross the street, buy girl scout cookies, and save an orphanage to be a good person. There is no real exact recipe, only a a rough guideline, and that is to let love guide your actions.

Anyway, we are all good people at heart, it's just that a lot of us have become too caught up in this whole silly human buisness and become distracted a little bit.

	17-06-2003 10:32									#15
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Yes.

It's called Mingapulco

	17-06-2003 10:39									#16
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quote: Originally posted by alva quote: I hope there is no hell. because I'm most certainly heading in that direction That's the beaty of catholisism, all you have to do a second before you die is repent and all is well. However, live a perfect life, swear and a second later a car runs you over and it's hell for you dude.

Er.... kinda. In order for your repetence to be accepted in that condition you have to be in a state of perfect contrition, meaning contrition due to sincere sorrow you have offended God and a desire to repenty, not just being scared you are going to Hell. Might be kinda hard if you have lived a bad life.

Monkspider:

OK, if you believe there is no permanent Hell, then where is Lucifer(Satan)? Christian tradition on Angels is that their wills are such that, once they make a decision, they simply do not change their minds, it is forever. In addition, the tradition on demons is that they are so full of hate for God that they wish to overthrow/destroy God, and most certainly don't want a reconciliation with God. Hell is after all described as a place for the devil and his angels. So if you don't believe in an eternal hell then what about them?

	17-06-2003 10:51									#17
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quote: Er.... kinda. In order for your repetence to be accepted in that condition you have to be in a state of perfect contrition, meaning contrition due to sincere sorrow you have offended God and a desire to repenty, not just being scared you are going to Hell. Might be kinda hard if you have lived a bad life.

If a priest gives you absolution, aren't you saved by the bell?

	17-06-2003 10:56									#18
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quote: Anyway, to go a little bit more in depth on Alva's question, there are no exact guidelines which dictate what a good person is. For example, you do not have to help old ladies cross the street, buy girl scout cookies, and save an orphanage to be a good person. There is no real exact recipe, only a a rough guideline, and that is to let love guide your actions.

That is your interpretation a good person and is that enough to get to the next level.
The fact remains you don't know, and HOW good a person do you have to be? A little good or fantastically good?

BTW: I do know what a good person makes

	17-06-2003 11:00									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Monkspider: OK, if you believe there is no permanent Hell, then where is Lucifer(Satan)? Christian tradition on Angels is that their wills are such that, once they make a decision, they simply do not change their minds, it is forever. In addition, the tradition on demons is that they are so full of hate for God that they wish to overthrow/destroy God, and most certainly don't want a reconciliation with God. Hell is after all described as a place for the devil and his angels. So if you don't believe in an eternal hell then what about them?

Hey, great questions! I don't know too much about Lucifer, he has been cast out at the moment. He's trying to make his way back to God after making a couple rather large boo-boos. I guess I could best describe him as definitely one of the older, more advanced souls, so beautiful, but much darker in contrast to some of the other more advanced angels. He is not pure evil as the contemporary Bible describes him.

As for what's referred to as demons, and other such negative beings, AFAIK they are souls who are in the hell state that I described, too ashamed to face the creator. Sorry, I can't provide more info.

	17-06-2003 11:05									#20
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quote: Originally posted by alva [q]Anyway, to go a little bit more in depth on Alva's question, there are no exact guidelines which dictate what a good person is. For example, you do not have to help old ladies cross the street, buy girl scout cookies, and save an orphanage to be a good person. There is no real exact recipe, only a a rough guideline, and that is to let love guide your actions. [q] That is your interpretation a good person and is that enough to get to the next level. The fact remains you don't know, and HOW good a person do you have to be? A little good or fantastically good? BTW: I do know what a good person makes

Well Alv, ol pal, I think you are looking at it the wrong way. It is not something that is quanitative, for example, you don't have to have accumulated exactly 10,234 good points to go to get a prize. It is all a journey. I hope that helps a little.

	17-06-2003 11:19									#21
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"If a priest gives you absolution, aren't you saved by the bell?"

Well, yes, and the same for if you make an act of perfect contrition. God always accepts sincere repenters





"He's trying to make his way back to God after making a couple rather large boo-boos."

Errr... No, he is not. I don't know what it is that makes you think he would have any interest in reconciliation with God, rather Christian teachings are that he and his fellow demons are trying to undermine God and lead more people away from him.

God loves us, but he also gives us free will, including the abilit to reject God.

"The fact remains you don't know, and HOW good a person do you have to be? A little good or fantastically good? "

Just good enough that your actions don't represent a real rejection of God. Obiwan and I discussed this at length a while back.

"
As for what's referred to as demons, and other such negative beings, AFAIK they are souls who are in the hell state that I described, too ashamed to face the creator."

Err... Actually demon is just another word for a fallen angel, one who accompined Lucifer in his rebellion.

	17-06-2003 11:24									#22
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No help needed

I admit I was trolling a little (the good kind, is there a word for that btw?)
But if we go back to the beginning (not time, the thread )

Then this is Tass:

quote: We all go through a cycle......Once we become good enough, the cycle ends and we ascend.

That either makes it quantative or something more then more then just a regular good person. The quantative doesn't make any sense, does it.
Perhaps it's 5 times good in a row = pass, be an axemurderer once, nono, now you have start all over.
So that leaves 'something more', and there lies the problem and it becomes a crapshoot, and again doesn't make any sence.

	17-06-2003 14:33									#23
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There is a hell. Take a look out of the window and it is there. We all contribute to creating it, even unwittingly. The challenge is simply to do better now.

	17-06-2003 16:06									#24
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I don't beleive in hell as a place where satan lives and there is burning and will always be there

if ther eis anything that can be called hell, it is (or will be) on earth

which is where I beleive that satan and the fallen angels are for the most part

Jon Miller

	17-06-2003 17:08									#25
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one theologian once said that hell isn't any of the fire or brimstone. all it is is being banished into a region where one never again feels the presence or the love of god.

i sorta like this idea. then again, i'm also probably heading in that direction (though i'm shooting for purgatory), and i detest heat, so...

	18-06-2003 11:00									#26
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quote: it is is being banished into a region where one never again feels the presence or the love of god.

I agree QCubed.

Fire and brimstone are imagery people have developed to describe hell, one such example being Paradise Lost.

The only biblical description of hell just calls it a place where one is eternally seperated from God.

So yes, I believe in hell as a spiritual realm for demons and those who choose to reject God, but not necessarily in the imagery of hell with fire and brimstone.

Earth is entirely different from Hell in that after Christ returns all of earth will fade away leaving only heaven and hell.

	18-06-2003 11:09									#27
	Re: Re: Monkspider's spirituality corner: Is there a hell? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 No. There is no hell. We all go through a cycle......Once we become good enough, the cycle ends and we ascend.

Based on Hindu reincarnation?

	18-06-2003 11:14									#28
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Hell is a place much like your home town.

(So what if I stole this from Shaw).

	18-06-2003 11:15									#29
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Alva -

quote: But id we don't know what the qualifications are

Most people already do, it's called a "conscience".

Hell, I believe, comes from the hebrew "sheol", meaning "grave".

	18-06-2003 13:41									#30
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Hell is the job I had last year.