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Yahweh Sabaoth
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The Heavens
Dec 2002
time: 05:29
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Who to target first?
This is one of the most important questions the Civilization player can ask him or herself. Even the most peaceful types have to go to war sometime, if only for defensive purposes. Warmongers, which many Civ players are, naturally ask this question quite a bit, and those playing on large/huge maps with the max. amount of neighbors can't stress this question enough.
The answer's pretty straight forward at the beginning of the game, depending on a number of factors: who has land you want? Who do you fear most? Who is the weakest? Who has a resource you want? Is the war "do-able"?
But by the middle of the game, if you're not in an overwhelmingly dominant position, if your neighbors are near tech/power parity, this question becomes harder to answer.
Attached is a saved game that demonstrates fairly well a basic conundrum that a typical player might find him/herself in. I am playing as the Aztecs, and am without question the most powerful civ in the game. However, I have several troubling neighbors that threaten my supremacy:
- The Iroquois to the south are the world's second-largest empire, with plenty of iron, horsies and saltpeter. I am not sure if they've triggered their GA or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't; they've expanded peacefully. They are annoyed with me.
- The Carthaginians to the West are mid-sized, near in tech, and have tons of knights, medival infantry, and those accursed NMs. Much worse, their empire borders my "homeland" as well as Antium, the site of my Forbidden City. They are annoyed with me.
- I have several smaller neighbors, friendlier to me and not much of a threat.
My forces are in place to take on Carthage in a long drawn-out war, but it's not too late to reposition and take on the Iroquois instead.
If I take on Carthage now, I will probably win the war, but the Iroquois will have lots of time to develop musketmen, and eventually cavalry... they will become quite difficult to invade, which is my ultimate goal. If I take on the Iroquois now, Carthage will keep up in tech and will remain a threat to my empire.
In a few turns I will have enough cash to upgrade my knights to cavalry. The question now is: smash Carthage and then move against the Iroquois, vice versa, or take out my puny neighbors before Carthage or Salamanca?
I'm playing Regent level, so whatever I do, I'm almost assured victory. Still, I think this saved game demonstrates well a typical conundrum and I'd like everyone's advice, as well as other saved games posing similar questions.
Thanks. 
 Attachment: viva presidenté chavez!.sav
This has been downloaded 14 time(s).
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mimi
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Where Moose are Meat
Feb 2002
time: 01:29
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Well... I'm at work so I can't look at the save but I'd probably enlist the Carth to wage war with me against the Iroq. That way the biggest is gone and, hopefully, Carth will lose some of its troops and will divert gold from research - all to your advantage 'cause after the Iroq are whittled to size, you can then turn on Carth.
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mimi
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Where Moose are Meat
Feb 2002
time: 01:29
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quote:
Originally posted by vmxa1
Either way, you may want to get the other one on side to prevent a two front war. |
Oh yeah... 'cause if you don't side with one of them, you know they'll side together and THEN you'll be in the kettle!
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Dominae
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My thoughts:
Once again, you're clearly dominating this game. Therefore, the "big decision" of which civ to attack is really inconsequential. Declare war on both the Iroquois and Carthage and you're guaranteed to be victorious on both fronts.
By the way, thumbs up on building more attackers than defenders this game: 97 Knights, 11 Musketmen and 12 Pikemen is a good Warmonger standing army.
A big tip on making the war easier for you: leave almost every city in your empire undefended. Only the cities you've recently conquered or bordering your next target should be garrisoned (I suppose you could also use a couple of troops near Greece and Egypt, but it's not really that important). You have a Strong military compared to everyone other civ, even the Iroquois. If you use all your Knights in your offensive, you'll simply decimate the AI, meaning you will not face a counter-attack. Garrisons are therefore useless. Again, you have way too much Happiness, and therefore Military Police is a useless.
In other words, your Knights want to kill stuff, not hang around in your cities. Every single Knight feels the same way (and every Cavalry too), so get out there and bonk some heads!
Trust me, the AI will not conquer your undefended cities. Knowing how the AI behaves in different situations is a key aspect of beating the higher difficulty levels.
Ok, let's assume you're not overly powerful, and that the decision to attack either Carthage or the Iroquois is meaningful. Who should you attack? My vote would be for the Iroquois: you've got a momentary advantage with your Cavalry, and therefore can do some serious damage before the Iroquois get too annoying. For the first 20 or so turns of the war you'll be fighting Cavalry versus Knigths, which is really easy against the AI. Carthage does not post a threat, as they're small and close to your core. You can get rid of them anytime but doing so provides no real advantage. So it's better to attack the civ that could rival your power, here the Iroquois. If Carthage had, say, a Luxury or a Wonder you wanted, I would definitely suggest you take care of them first, however.
Hope this helps.
Dominae
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Dominae
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Yahweh, vmxa1's advice re: Carthage is sound: you get Carthage to declare war on the Iroquois, and then you get to see exactly how many Knights Carthage can really muster. It's not going to be a lot. Then you can just move in on Carthage with Cavalry recently built in your core cities. Of course, you would take a rep hit, which is annoying, but you're so powerful that it should not matter.
You really must consider your power relative to another civ's, Yahweh: just becaues Carthage has a few Knights prancing around does not mean they threaten you in any way. Learning what the AI is capable of given a certain land mass and tech level is a very important skill to develop.
Dominae
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Yahweh Sabaoth
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The Heavens
Dec 2002
time: 05:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
You really must consider your power relative to another civ's, Yahweh: just becaues Carthage has a few Knights prancing around does not mean they threaten you in any way. Learning what the AI is capable of given a certain land mass and tech level is a very important skill to develop.
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Well, I'm still working on developing that skill of course... and Carthage in particular gives me the chills. I'd say that in 3/4 of the games I play where Carthage is another civ, they end up a major power, and in 1/2 of those games, they become the major power, other than my civ, of course.
Don't ask me why... I thought Carthage specialized in trade and naval units. But they also wind up swallowing whole civs, beating me to key techs at times, being agressive and threatening. Not too hard to conquer, but harder than others.
Still, you guys are the pros, so I probably will take on the Iroquois and try to backstab Carthage. If I'm slick enough, I can do so before I meet any other civs.
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cumi
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Austria
Jul 2002
time: 06:29
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As I mostly play regent with industrios civ, in this phase of game I am building! I am building Universities, Banks, Stocks etc. Then I am building Factories etc.
As you see, I am not a warmonger one. I am always giving to my scientist all my gold. My goal is always to be the most advanced! If I am the most advanced, I have the most advanced units...OK enough of this bla-bla-bla....
My strategy in this stage is - especially, if I see, that I am not alone dominating the game - NOT making a war, but a WORLD WAR. If I attack a civ and all the others have peace - the others will benefit from this. Be sure, that if you are in war, nobody else is enjoying the peace.
My experience is: if I make a world war once, I can finish it whenever I want or just simply ignore it. BUT, the all the other civs will fight for the next 1000 years. Maybe, the only thing to take care, that non of the civs should dominate the WW...
Just start the WW and leave them fight until end of the world....
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Mountain Sage
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YS,
You know my answer: smack them, but culturally, diplomatically and technologically. You are already in a dominant position, therefore, instead of spending your gold on maintaining a big army, crank up the tech slider and go for a tech/4 turns. Then, once you have a clear tech lead, trade luxuries and gpt with your 'older' techs. My 1 GP advice: reduce your army to 40 knights (soon to become cavalry). With the rest, disband them and rush libraries, harbors, marketplaces, whatever. Kill them all, but with brains and gold.
P.S. Dominae: you might want to look at the 'acronyms thread' and I still owe you my comments about AU208 (I just started!)
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Cruddy
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I'm no war monger - with me the key question on declaring war is what I get out of it.
If I get some productive cities or a useful wonder, then it's worth it.
If all I get is a lot of worthless cities tying up my troops as garrison until they starve, I usually won't bother... unless I want to tie all the AIs into a military alliance for a reputation boost.
So what will you gain from the war? That, for me, is the critical answer.
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Dominae
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Mountain Sage, interesting angle on this thread (the peaceful route). My question: if Yahweh were not in such a dominant position, which civ should he attack? Anything is doable if you're clearly ahead, but when the game is a little closer it's not as easy to just "decide" on peace or war...the game decides for you.
Oh, and good work on the Glossary thread! I'll pop in there with some more specific comments soon.
Cruddy, sometimes the only goal in conquering "useless" neighbors is to get that much closer to a Domination victory. If you've got the resources to take out neighbors and they're of no use to you alive, it's worth it to destroy them ASAP. That way you'll finish the game sooner (and will probably avoid the "late-game blues").
Dominae
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Yahweh Sabaoth
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The Heavens
Dec 2002
time: 05:29
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MS, good to hear from you. But I'm afraid I followed Dominae's advice, and marched over the mountains south of Japan into the Iroquois Confederacy. Now I've taken the Western half of their empire, will soon be moving my capital to Salamanca, and intend on crossing the large mountain range in the middle of their empire and finishing them off.
Trust me, I'm still much more the builder type, although I'm becoming more war-oriented everyday... I would have rather cranked my tech... but for some reason (probably corruption) I just couldn't do it, even after trimming my armed forces.
What really spurred me on was when Utica defected and joined my empire. That really said to me "Don't worry about these Carthaginians, take on your giant neighbors to the South." And I did. It's a bloody war, but it'll net me tons of GLs, and leave Carthage quaking in their tiny boots.
I could not induce either Greece or Carthage to join in my crusade without giving them Chemistry. However, neither have attacked me. Both are merely "annoyed," especially Carthage I imagine. 
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Yahweh Sabaoth
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The Heavens
Dec 2002
time: 05:29
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Carver, all victory conditions are enabled. Which leads me to ask, since a domination victory is very possible in this game: will that yield a higher score, or will dominating the world and winning a cultural victory accomplish that?
I had three thrusts: 1 towards the small city on the West Coast south of Toyama, one main thrust down from Shimonoseki, and a smaller force to take out Goiguen and the other city 'round there (can't remember all the names). I took out of the 5 cities and then my two thrusts converged, moving over the mountains to take out oil spring. It was easier than I thought; I too was dreading the mountains.
Once I took Oil Springs, taking the rest of the Western cities wasn't too hard. I also took another west coast town. NOTE: I refer to the West coast that continues from Japan's west coast, not the west coast of the Western peninsula.
I'm going to move my forces across the mountains and into the East. After that little push, I shouldn't have much difficulty finishing the Iroquois off. The most irritating task will be taking their island town and the small, near-antartic villages. I'm hoping to bring the Americans against the Iroquois soon, in hopes that the Iroquois will finish the Americans before I finish the Iroquois.
The Carthaginians beat me by 2 turns to Astronomy, but I'll probably generate a GL to build Copernicus' first, but if not, Carthage is next on my list after the Iroquois. 
It would be interesting (to me at least) if you were to play the game following your route - invading the Western peninsula, shaving off the North, invading Carthage and then doing the rest of the Iroquois later. Give it a shot, we could compare games.
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Yahweh Sabaoth
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The Heavens
Dec 2002
time: 05:29
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I did the exact same thing very early in the game I uploaded. The Greeks, Carthaginians, Romans, Egyptians, Japanese, Americans and I were all about tied. I attacked them all, stealing workers and techs and hindering progress, and set up the following wars:
Greeks vs. Carthaginians
Americans vs. Egyptians
Egyptians vs. Carthaginians
Japanese vs. Americans
Romans vs. Me
Japanese vs. Romans
...there may have been others I can't remember... oh yes, I briefly fought the Carthaginians.
The Greek-Carthaginian-Egyptian war lasted forever, as did the American-Egyptian war and the Japanese conquest of Rome. Thanks to the Greek-Carthaginian war in particular, I was able to ascend while the others were crippled. I was having a hard enough time fighting the Romans with horsemen, but in the end these other wars assured my ascendancy.
They were nerve-wracking though, as they were fought almost entirely in my territory! The Greek-Carthginian war gave me nightmares and made Carthage a power I thought had to be reckoned with. But, I was wrong... they're no challenge to me whatsoever, and the Japanese and Iroquois, were also were very scary, fell like wheat to my thresher.
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Yahweh Sabaoth
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The Heavens
Dec 2002
time: 05:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Sage
you and Arrian are the perfect BaE (Builder after Extermination)
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Yes, well, that seems the most effective way to play the game. It would seem to make the Romans, French and Carthaginians the ideal civs for the huge world.
I hope I'm proved wrong as I move up difficulty levels though. Now, each civ, despite it's traits, is calling for the same pattern: REX, maximize production rather than food, conquer your neighbors, build stuff, win. It's fun at times, but at other times, just tedious.
Which leads me to ask: do you all think I'm ready to attack Carthage now? I mean right now, as in, this turn or next. I know I have enough troops to take Carthage itself, but I'm not sure about the other cities on my front.
Carthage has many wonders I want, and has made contact with the other civs. No Arrian's Deception for me!  Now I just want to wipe these toads out ASAP so that I can switch to democracy and finally do the building I love so much. So, MS, Dominae, et al., take a look at this game if you have the time, and criticize away (I mean that):
Attachment: time to liberate carthage.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).
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17-06-2003 19:53
them so much. 
). What victory conditions are enabled and is it all standard rules?
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