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Hot_Enamel
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Melbourne, Australia
Aug 2002
time: 14:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Trip
So CFC and GCA will agree to embargo our techs? 
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Demo games are wierd .. these guys could be best mates in a few rounds...If I was on their team, I would be looking to see who is the biggest threat and try to direct an embargo & alliance against them .. yep, 4 sure.
quote:
Originally posted by Trip
The world situations which develop in DGs are not quite so simple as "hey, he is on top, let's pound him."
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It sure can work like that. Did GS not just get through a public sledging as everyone rallyed for peace with Vox. Are GS not running around like mad trying to convince everyone that they spent their entire GA on military, and are only temporarily on top ?
- Personal opinion - Not official GoW stance 
quote:
Originally posted by Trip
Plus, Libraries would also allow us to cut back on the slider and build up more gold if we just wanted to remain "on par" with the other civs.
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100% agree
quote:
Originally posted by Trip
Usually the situation you'll find yourself in a Civ game won't lend itself to allow you to build Libraries and such as we will soon have the opportunity to do so. With a chokepoint defending CFC, one small front to worry about GCA, an experienced army with very tough defenders we have all the ingredients to become a powerful builder civ while teams like CFC and GCA are at each other's throats with more important things to worry about than Apolyton getting a tech lead. |
Agreed with you right up until they have more to worry about than our tech lead. Eventually there will be peace, and when they look up and us 3-4 techs ahead, it may suddenly hit them that we are their biggest threat.
All I am saying, is not to give any team any reason to think we are a threat. A huge tech lead will do that. Libraries are good, as they will set us up for the future. But I would rather staore gold as you said above, than work hard at trying to get a tech jump.
Regs
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:29
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A tech lead does not equal alliance against, necessarily.
One can be liberal with an ally in the supply of said tech. They surely will not mind then.
Oh, and diplomatic lessons from the PTW DG are really not applicable here. In the PTW DG we are all members of the same site. There are very close contacts between senior members of teams on an ongoing basis, as we all know each other. Beta's Iraqi information campaigns have an audience.
In an ISDG all that is missing. Do you think Soren gives a damn about what we are posting in here? The French? The Germans? Do I have the faintest clue who miccolf and Kentonio are? The diplomacy will be much more real world, and much less mind game.
Oh, one more thing for the benefit of this team... the public kvetching over the fate of Vox made their situation much worse than it needed to be. Yes, that is correct. The members of GS felt under siege, and they reacted as any would who felt hard pressed and could identify a target that they had handy opportunity to rend into bits. Any on GS who wanted a peace with Vox that was not severe were forced to side with their team-mates in the face of the weasel words and duplicity that emerged. The only thing that then renewed the hopes of peace was an offer by Vox to evacuate the Isle of Stormia entirely.
In short, if you want to ensure that an opponent will unite and decide to fight like hellions to your utter destruction, play mind games with them in public fora. I can attest, it works wonders if everyone doesn't quit in disgust first.
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Dominae
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Golden Age priorities: Temples, Harbors and Aqueducts, everything else military units (including Galleys). Also, Barracks in a few select cities. Marketplaces come before Libraries, by the way, but both are low on our list at the moment (unfortunately).
Let's not forget that our "Jungle problem" will not go away with our Golden Age, and therefore we'll have to "waste" some of it on continuing to build Workers. Come to think of it, we'll still be expanding, so we'll probably be "wasting" pop on Settlers too.
If we're feeling confident (which we should not; our situation is still far from ideal, even if we've got an edge on our neighbors), I suppose we could prebuild for a Wonder. The problem as other have mentioned is that we have no great city-spots for Wonder construction near our capital. So, although we could definitely use the extra Production to accumulate some Shields for a Wonder, we should expect to get it (especially the big ones, like the Pyramids). We'll definitely get a Wonder, but it might end up being something crappy like the Hanging Gardens or the Great Wall. The Great Lighthouse is our best bet in terms of cost and desirability.
Our best Wonder city is Apolyton. With a Food bonus, all those Hills, a Granary and no Corruption, it's the one city that has all the makings of a Production "powerhouse". Problem is, we still need to chop Jungle and expand, and taking Apolyton out of the picture works against this. To get Apolyton to great Production status, we would want to Join a few Workers to reach size 10-12 (no time to wait for growth during a GA), but again this uses up valuable Workers. Additionally, it's annoying that Apolyton is not on a River, as we would need to build an Aqueduct there to before building the Wonder (plus a Temple or Coliseum, probably, but that's standard). All this hurts our chances of getting the Wonder we really want.
Dominae
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:29
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One thing that I think that we need to consider when thinking about a possible Wonder(s), is the fact that we are Luxury poor. Sure we have 2 Luxuries, but we won't net any new ones with the conquest of CDG. From the Info that We can guess at, GCA has 2 of them (why have a alliance treaty clause about cities with 2 luxes), so if things work for us, we can get 2 more.
One thing that we might want to look at, besides the Pyramids, is the Hanging Gardens. Granted, it is not available after steam power, but that will still get us thought the whole of the middle ages and a bit more before that happens. Having 1 extra happy per city and 2 in the city that it's built is something that can't be ignored.
The timing of a prebuild in a GA is tricky, especially depeding on when we actually make contact with other civs (if we trade for it) and when we will get fuedalism.
But that's one of the reasons that we are starting to discuss this now...
MoI E_T
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Fried-Psitalon
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Not just another pretty face.
Dec 2002
time: 00:29
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Wee hoo! All hooked up in Dallas- still on a modem though, eugh. Anyhow, to biz:
I think the overarching question for our Golden Age should be tied to the overarching question of "What after CDG falls?"
(I haven't read the thread entitled Post Republic yet, which may touch on this.)
If we intend to solidify our borders after CDG and not push south into GCA for a while, then we have no need of military production. If we intend to ride GCA into the ground as Elephants rise up against us, then we should use every bit of our GA to "waste on military units" (nice unbiased presentation there, hehe) to hammer them.
If we intend to spend our time clearing out land, building our infrastructure, etc... well, and so on.
What we do depends on what our next long-range plan is, really. If we intend to make war, let us use our GA on war. If we intend to build up, then let us use it so.
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Dominae
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Re: Temples versus Marketplaces debate.
I've learned that it is important to get some Culture presence in MP, simply because other teams may prioritize it and you do not want to get in a situation where an important border city is under the constant threat of flipping. Remember that the total relative Culture value of one civ compared to another is a deciding factor in flips; if our Culture is low compared to say GCA's, then rushing Temples at the last minute may not save us. It is easy to plan for and basically avoid Culture flips in SP (especially when at war), but it's a whole different story in MP (as is everything related to war, actually).
Most human players do not consider Culture flips as an act of war, so we could get angry as much as we want but it's not going to get us very far in the court of public opinion (that is, the UN).
Another reason to build Temples is that they guarantee a Content Citizen in a given city. With only two Luxuries at our disposal for the moment, Marketplaces will do nothing to combat unhappiness. I do not like relying on other players/teams to keep my Citizens Happy via Luxury trades. It is simply too easy to get completely screwed that way. Furthermore, with the constant turmoil on our continent I would not recommend against starting a long-lasting trade agreement, since this would affect/restrict our diplomatic options (for example, we could no longer go to war with GCA, since they're hooking us up with 2 much-needed Luxuries, and so our ambassadors to them would be on permanent sucking-up duty).
Also, only our major cities would really benefit from Marketplaces with respect to extra Gold income, and then only if they're allowed to grow big enough. But then there's a problem: the more you grow your few cities to benefit from Marketplaces, the more you need to use the Luxury slider. Therefore you run into a situation where you've got the Lux slider at 40% but only for the benefit of 2 or 3 major cities, which is wasteful. Might as well build the cheap Temples everywhere, and start fighting the unhappiness right away. This brings you closer to having big cities without Lux slider reliance.
As a minor point but still worth consideration, remember that Cathedrals require Temples to be built first, and I can guarantee we're going to need Cathedrals in this game.
Finally, like Fried-Psitalon said in another thread, it's almost always better to expand OUT before UP. Temples are necessary for expanding OUT, since they directly affect how much pop you can reasonably have in your cities; Marketplaces are clearly examples of expanding UP, as you need large cities to make them useful in the first place.
The bottom line: we only have 2 Luxuries, and we're not sure to get more, and therefore I recommend building Temples before Marketplaces in all cities in this game. The situation might very well change, but I think this is a good rule of thumb for now (I'm very open to debate on this, mind you...I'm always open to debate, but this point more than others).
Dominae
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Trip
When your cities get larger (size 12 or so) Temples make almost no difference, and Luxuries + Luxury slider is really all that matters.
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1. It's not what you need when you're at size 12 that matters, but what you need in order to get there. If we have to slow down growth because all our Citizens are Unhappy, then you bet that Temple is worth the cost of getting an extra productive pop point out of a city.
2. As I mentioned above, it is not cost-effective to have the Lux slider at high percentages just for the benefit of a few of our cities. Clearly once many of our cities reach the high pops we're going to need to use the Lux slider quite a bit, but it's more efficient to use Temples in the interim.
3. As practice, or if you're skeptical about what I'm saying here, start up a SP game and only restrict yourself to two Luxuries (never hook up more than two, nor trade for any more): you will find that the best way to stay competitive in terms of research is to build all those darn happiness improvements, from Temples to Cathedrals, and even the odd Coliseum. The happiness Wonders also become very critical (which is why I think the Hanging Gardens is not such a bad Wonder for us to get).
Dominae
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18-06-2003 09:02
). Being able to develop a HUGE tech lead (with us being one of the highest GNPs now, coupled with GA, coupled with Republic, coupled with Libraries) would be very advantageous.
Thats a joke right Trip?
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