18-06-2003 09:43									#1
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What do we do once we get Republic and squish CDG?

I think the first tech we should research after Republic should be Literature. If we use our GA to build quick Libraries, we can develop a massive tech lead. Despite our terrain, we have efficiently placed our cities and built tile improvements which allow us to surpass all other civs but the Netatolians and GWT which we do not have contact with (educated guesses ). We are the economic power on this continent. Our economy is our advantage. With Libraries we could push home that advantage.

Keeping our military in good shape should also be a priority. This game will be won or lost on the battlefield. Thus, in the end our military should be our priority, because that is all that really matters. This isn't going to be a game won culturally or diplomatically...

We should build up a fair navy (if we don't have one already). We're fairly isolated, and with control of the chokepoint we'll only have one front in the south to face another civ (GCA). Our navy will give us the flexibility to reach across to territories which we would not be able to take or hold with our armies. Plus, if we are the first to get contact with the "other" continent, then our economic advantages will be even more important when we find new trading partners.

Chopping jungle. Yeah, we should chop jungle. New concept, I know.

Thus, in summary, I feel we should become an economic power with a strong military, using Literature to help build up our technological advantage.

	18-06-2003 09:54									#2
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I already mentioned it in the other thread, but I will do it in this on as well...

I agree with everything, except the tech lead.
IMO, it will just give everyone a reason to discuss how to keep up with us. This turns into an embargo, and this turns into an alliance.

Economic power is difficult to judge, but a tech lead can easily be seen as a threat by other teams.

	18-06-2003 11:58									#3
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I agree with H_E

I think we should carefully balance might with diplomacy so that we are not seen as "the team to beat" but rather, "the team to have on your side".

[Adm_Mahan_on]

I do agree 100% on having a strong navy. Navys give military operations a huge new dimension and versatiliy, and it is an advantage we must have

[Adm_Mahan_off]

	18-06-2003 12:26									#4
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I would only favor going to literature if we can secure a deal to trade it to another team, like CFC or GCA, to help us get to the next era. We need Construction and Currency to do that(After THE Republic). Literature is not a required tech, but if it help us get the other two that are required, then fine.

I can see a trade of CoL(10) and Literature(10) for Construction(20) or Currency(16), with the latter a little gold tacked onto the deal.

I don't want to trade The Republic(28) for any Ancient Times' tech. Only for something in the next era.

If after a couple of teams already have Literature, then we can either research it ourselves or possibly pay for it with gold. We do not know how the market will be for techs yet. How will teams place value on techs? How far will they go to undercut someone else's bid? It could be cheaper to buy, as it is in the PTWDG, than it is to research...

	18-06-2003 18:14									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel I already mentioned it in the other thread, but I will do it in this on as well... I agree with everything, except the tech lead. IMO, it will just give everyone a reason to discuss how to keep up with us. This turns into an embargo, and this turns into an alliance. Economic power is difficult to judge, but a tech lead can easily be seen as a threat by other teams.

We do not have to grab the tech lead. Having libraries means we can pour it on (tech rate) when we want to, to get a specific tech. At all other times we just reap in the cash. We can use the cash for massive upgrade campaigns, rushing infrastructure, or even buying techs from other civs - which should make them think we need their help with techs, even though we probably could have researched it faster ourselves.

	18-06-2003 19:19									#6
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We have much better things to do than Literature and Libraries.

In MP, the real tech races only begins in the mid to late Medieval Age, as before that it is rather easy to trade for whatever you want since everything is relatively cheap. This is assuming, of course, that you have enough trading partners, which we should ensure we do at least until Education.

The payoff of Libraries pales in comparision to get large, productive cities, which means: Aqueducts, Harbors, Temples, Workers and Settlers (and Courthouses in our remote cities, but only if we feel we're relatively safe militarily). We'll be needing to put Luxuries around 20-30% eventually, and so Marketplaces will help in keeping our research up without running a deficit. Like I said in the other thread, Libraries go down near the bottom of our "to-do" list.


Dominae

	18-06-2003 19:20									#7
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Dejon is right. We dont need to get a huge tech lead now. If we use the cash for some upgrades as well our military will get stronger

	19-06-2003 00:51									#8
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Once we get Republic + GA I think Literature will probably take a whole 4 turns to research.

	19-06-2003 02:32									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Once we get Republic + GA I think Literature will probably take a whole 4 turns to research.

That's 4 turns not spent researching required techs which provide benefits we actually plan to use in the near-future. I'm sure some sucker will research Literature at some point. I do not want that sucker to be us.


Dominae

	19-06-2003 06:49									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae That's 4 turns not spent researching required techs which provide benefits we actually plan to use in the near-future. I'm sure some sucker will research Literature at some point. I do not want that sucker to be us. Dominae

Now this no-one can dispute. There is bound to be some sucker who wants the GL, and it will likely kill them. No-one is going to tech trade very much with someone getting it all for free. I would foresee someone getting Lit, the GL and then probably succumbing before the fury of their neighbours.

	19-06-2003 07:13									#11
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Actually, the Great Library is usually not all the a great in MP. Unless some team has started prebuilding for it some time ago, or does not have many neighbors, the effects will not be worth the cost, compared to, say, the Medieval Age Wonders. It's kind of hard to explain, but let's just say that unless it gets completed very early (as in now) with a Great Leader, it's effects are really not that scary. Just imagine if we started building it now: where would we be in the tech tree by the time we get it finished? Probably somewhere in the Medieval Age.


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 19-06-2003 at 17:53

	19-06-2003 09:17									#12
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Libraries could allow lower research while maintaining pace and keeping gold flowing into the coffers for troops and other things.

As well, we are at a serious deficit vs GCA in culture. Libraries would help address that.

Marketplaces are good, but Libs could be better if science is going to be set over 50%. No?

	19-06-2003 09:22									#13
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NYE is right.

Big cities = good. Happy citizens = good.

But we will need to work on our economy some, especially in order to keep up with teams like GWT and Netatolia once we meet them. Just with 3 super-strong economies you can blast through the Middle Age. Unless they're next to each other and hate one another, they'll probably be researching full steam ahead (or tone it down some to build up cash, but they'll still be able to research).

Until we get Construction Aquaducts (and thus 7+ cities) are moot. Marketplaces won't pay off until we start trading for luxuries, or we crank our science down really low. Temples... chances are we'll be heavily reliant upon the luxury slider anyways. Libraries are the one improvement which I can see good immediate feedback with. + Culture. + Science.

	19-06-2003 10:10									#14
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We will have Temples in larger cities before the war. They will be necessary to maintain productivity under Republic, or we will have to use the slider... a lot.

	19-06-2003 14:44									#15
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I like temples

They generate culture and one content face for 1 maintenance per turn is quite good. Although in my own games they are more important than here, (I use a loose spacing, only a little more tight than the AI)
in our biggest towns they would be very useful. I hope they fit into the build cue, it would make me happy

	19-06-2003 17:51									#16
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Temples
Harbors
Aqueducts
Workers
Settlers
Military units
(Courthouses in cities that need them).

These are priorities. They do not leave much room open for Marketplaces or Libraries. It is always better to invest in future growth than to improve what you already have with Libraries, Marketplaces and such. I hope we do not reach a situation where we still have a lot to expand into (and a lot of tile improvements to do) but are focusing in Libraries instead.

Depending on the state of the tech race when we do hit our Golden Age, it might very well be wiser to think about building Cathedrals before either Libraries or Marketplaces.

Of course, above I'm generalizing: some cities do not need Aqueducts, for instance. In those few core cities that do have some extra time to build stuff, we'll decide what to build on a case-by-case basis. It's just that there are not that many such cities: Apolyton and Bananatopia will need to "pump" for quite some time still, even into our Golden Age. Conceivably we could take either of these off "pump duty", but then one of these might be dedicated to building a Wonder. There is simply not enough room in our empire for Libraries right now.


Dominae

	19-06-2003 19:51									#17
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I have to agree with Dominae. Libraries just aren't as much bang for our buck as temples, marketplaces, and aqueducts. However, I dont think we want to totally neglect them as the culture benefits of libraries + universities when we can get them too do add up. And as others have stated we can achieve status quo tech wise with a lower investment of our resources once if we have libraries and the other civs dont.

So I think its worth researching Lit if we can use it in a tech deal (one that saves us more than the 4 turns it will take us to get lit), but I dont think we should build libraries before other more valuable improvements. If we can't somehow make it a free tech through trades, then we are better off bee-lining toward the better MA techs and try for the art of war or the sistine.

	19-06-2003 21:50									#18
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There's a time and a place for every improvement in Civ. To say right now what we will or will not build in each city is a little premature.

We will base our decisons on what to build next based upon need. What we do need right now is to REX like rabbits and get our forces prepared for an invasion of CDG in approximately 30-35 turns.

I do support put Temples in the two planned border cities. I would even like to get Temples in Apolyton and Mingapulco before our change to The Republic or possibly just after, so we don't have to use the luxery slider.

	20-06-2003 03:47									#19
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I'd rather see Markets in Apolyton and Mingapulco. We don;t need the culture for workable territory, the happiness is equivalent (and gets better), and we get sorely needed cashola.

	20-06-2003 09:02									#20
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I am in agreement with Dominae; concentrating on growth before other factors is what we need to be doing. If GCA actually manages to steal one of our cities with a culture flip, I'll be impressed - and we'll have a reason to get very nasty with them, which is always nice.

If we're worried about culture flips in our border cities, fine, build temples there. We have lots of improved land and improving land is a great asset of Carthage- let's get laborers in our cities to USE that. Libraries - and wasting time researching Literature- would be an atrocious waste. Those don't have a significant effect until you have LARGE cities- so let's get some large cities first. Build OUT before you build UP is the successful rule. Building up before you build out is the way to have three great cities while everyone else gobbles up all the land. Someone will research Literature; we have a vested interest in getting to Chivalry before GCA if we can - let's stick with the mandatory techs only.