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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:29
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quote:
(Sent to Eli, Jon, and Beta, in probably two parts. Apolyton has been flaky today, so my apologies if you end up with multiple copies of part of this.)
Greetings People of Vox Controli,
It is with mixed feelings that I look upon this day. I am happy that there is hope for a speedy end to this war, but, but saddened that the kind of close relationship that once seemed to make sharing our small continent practical no longer exists.
Since receiving Eli's proposal, several of us in Gathering Storm have taken an active interest in how best to conduct Vox's evacuation. Our goals are not only to make the evacuation rapid, but also to help you regain prosperity as quickly as practical. In particular, one idea that occurred to us is that a combinaiton of a free palace jump to the other continent and a city-gift teleport (putting your units in a city, giving the city to us, and having the units automatically go to your new capital) could get all of your forces provided for under the treaty away without a need to build additional galleys. More importantly, it could make it practical to build settlers in your current core and use them to set up additional cities in your new core quickly. (That could be especially important in avoiding financial disaster from upkeep costs with how many units you want to keep - especially since workers also count as units.) And eliminating the need for additional galleys should speed up the process as well.
Regarding Eli's peace proposal, we would like to see it revised as follows:
1. Vox will have up to 18 turns, or until workers and settlers equaling its current population (with settlers counting as two pop points), whichever comes first, to evacuate. During that time, only workers and settlers will be produced unless Gathering Storm grants an exception for some special purpose. (This addresses both your fear of not having time to get enough out and our belief that it should be possible.)
3. When leaving, Vox promises not to raze any of it's worked tiles or remaining cities. (This includes abandoning cities by building settlers without GS's consent.) Vox also agrees not to sell any city improvements other than barracks and cultural improvements. (We don't want to spend huge amounts of gold or shields replacing improvements you can get just a handful of pocket change for selling.)
4. Vox will not allow any landings of forces other than GS on it's territory during the evacuation period. Any such forces already there will be asked to leave. (The original version referred to "hostile" forces, leaving an at least theoretically interesting loophole regarding forces claiming not to be hostile.)
8. Up to 2 GS War Chariots may patrol Voxian territory during the evacuation. GS and Vox will attempt to minimize interference between GS's patrols and Vox's unit movements. Aside from warriors needed as MPs to address happiness problems, Vox will keep its units outside its cities to avoid ambiguities in verifying numbers and types of troops. (Verification would be worthless in a city showing a veteran pike, and not worth much more in a city showing a veteran spear or veteran or elite immortal. Also, concern about freedom of movement runs in both directions.)
(Continuing)
And some additional provisions:
11. Vox will not use pop rushing in any city without GS's approval. (Assuming you want to evacuate as much population as possible, pop rushing will not be in your best interest anyhow, and we prefer not to inherit unhappiness from additional pop rushing.)
12. Vox will give Gathering Storm Engineering when research on that is completed. (Were it not for your attack on us and all the gold we had to spend rushing troops to defend ourselves in the early stages, we would almost certainly have researched it ourselves long ago. We would therefore consider it grossly unfair for you to try to charge us for it, nor would your simply refusing to provide it to us at all remedy the problem. Receiving Engineering from you would also help make up for the huge loss we took on Feudalism, a loss which we believe to have been caused in part by other civs' reluctance to make deals that would provide us with gold to fight you with. We therefore regard getting Engineering from you as a matter of simple justice.)
13. If applicable, Vox will sell or trade its free industrial and modern techs to Gathering Storm on terms at least as favorable as those on which it provides them to any other nation. This includes giving Gathering Storm an equal opportunity to pay with techs or other commodities rather than gold. Commitments required in return for land in your new home will not count in this regard, however. (This protects against your making excessive demands for thoe techs as a way to exact revenge, just in case you might consider such a thing, while providing you with reasonable compensation. It is my hope, however, that our teams will be on good enough terms to make this provision mostly superfluous.)
14. Vox will at no time now or in the future initiate, participate in, or encourage any embargo against GS in any matters of trade whatsoever. This includes, but is not limited to, Technology, Luxuries, Resources, Maps, or any other material or immaterial elements of the PTWDG. It applies both to formal embargos and informal arrangements or understandings that would tend to have a similar effect. (Again, I hope we're just being paranoid.)
15. If any former Voxian city transferred to GS attempts to flip back to Vox, Vox will reject the city when asked. Should a mistake be made in handling that, or if some quirk of MP prevents you from having an opportunity to reject the flip, Vox will immediately gift the city back to GS. (The purpose of this one is obvious. )
16. The city of Dissidentville will be an exception to the 18-turn evacuation period. Vox will either hand over or abandon Dissidentville (in the latter case, probably by disbanding with a settler sped up by disbanding units), at GS's choice, within the next seven turns. Should this provision undercut Vox's ability to evacuate population equivalent to its current population within 18 turns, GS will grant a suitable extension to compensate. (Dissidentville adds very little to your production capacity, and it's close enough to our core that we'd rather get a city there going sooner.)
17. It is understood by both sides that the spirit of this agreement that is important, not just its letter. Neither side will attempt to use technicalities to take unfair advantage of the other or to circumvent the intent of the agreement. (Self-evident, I hope.)
---
We think these modifications are reasonable and, aside from your reluctance to give us Engineering, not outside the spirit of Eli's proposal. Indeed, it is our hope that we can help you build a stronger core more quickly in your new home than you had expected to manage. We also hope that diplomatic and trade relations between our civs can be normalized once close proximity on a too-small land mass is no longer a source of contention. Perhaps absence can, as the saying goes, make the heart grow fonder.
Sincerely,
The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist
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Discuss.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:29
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We'll need a chat with team representatives from both sides that will have the power to accept or not accept the agreement. This way if we spend 2 days on discussing every version and a day on polling and then send the revised one to the other team, only to repeat the process, it will take too long.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:29
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Witt. I agree, 14 is stupid.
I'll post my detailed reservations a bit later.
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Wittlich
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A Wyandot lost in "The City" SF,CA
Dec 2000
time: 21:29
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Ah, and how about clause 15?! What GS is basically saying is that GS wants to have the culture-flipping tool which is built into the game ignored. Come on! If they are so worried about one of our former cities flipping back to us, they can just starve them to a size 1 and build cultural improvements in them. Basta. Problem solved. Any how, wouldn't all of our cities on Estonia be at size 1 when we hand them over to GS? If this is the case, then cultural flipping will be remote at best...I think they just want to ignore having to culturally improve those cities. 
I have a better idea for clause 15 - if by the remote possiblity, one of the cites does culture flip, we raise it to the ground, since it would be evident that GS could not handle the management of the city in question! 
Of course I joke. I guess if one of our former cities flip, we just don't accept it and it turns into a barbarian city...fine by me.
However if one of GS's cities culture-flip (that was NOT one of our former cities) then this clause should have no effect, since the clause is for the cities that we give them. Do I understand this correctly? 
EDIT: Just reread Clause 15 - Yes, this clause only effects those cities that we hand over to GS. OK. I can live with it. 
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:29
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DP
Last edited by Eli on 18-06-2003 at 22:23
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:29
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(I write it as if i'm replying to GS)
quote:
Originally posted by Eli
Greetings People of Vox Controli,
Greetings. 
1. Vox will have up to 18 turns, or until workers and settlers equaling its current population (with settlers counting as two pop points), whichever comes first, to evacuate. During that time, only workers and settlers will be produced unless Gathering Storm grants an exception for some special purpose. (This addresses both your fear of not having time to get enough out and our belief that it should be possible.)
Sounds good, but we also need to account for population growth during the first ~10 turns or so.
3. When leaving, Vox promises not to raze any of it's worked tiles or remaining cities. (This includes abandoning cities by building settlers without GS's consent.)
Hmmmm... We can live with that, I guess.
Vox also agrees not to sell any city improvements other than barracks and cultural improvements. (We don't want to spend huge amounts of gold or shields replacing improvements you can get just a handful of pocket change for selling.)
Ok.
4. Vox will not allow any landings of forces other than GS on it's territory during the evacuation period. Any such forces already there will be asked to leave. (The original version referred to "hostile" forces, leaving an at least theoretically interesting loophole regarding forces claiming not to be hostile.)
Acceptable.
8. Up to 2 GS War Chariots may patrol Voxian territory during the evacuation. GS and Vox will attempt to minimize interference between GS's patrols and Vox's unit movements. Aside from warriors needed as MPs to address happiness problems, Vox will keep its units outside its cities to avoid ambiguities in verifying numbers and types of troops. (Verification would be worthless in a city showing a veteran pike, and not worth much more in a city showing a veteran spear or veteran or elite immortal. Also, concern about freedom of movement runs in both directions.)
Not possible. We dont have enough Warriors.
And some additional provisions:
11. Vox will not use pop rushing in any city without GS's approval. (Assuming you want to evacuate as much population as possible, pop rushing will not be in your best interest anyhow, and we prefer not to inherit unhappiness from additional pop rushing.)
Ok.
12. Vox will give Gathering Storm Engineering when research on that is completed. (Were it not for your attack on us and all the gold we had to spend rushing troops to defend ourselves in the early stages, we would almost certainly have researched it ourselves long ago. We would therefore consider it grossly unfair for you to try to charge us for it, nor would your simply refusing to provide it to us at all remedy the problem. Receiving Engineering from you would also help make up for the huge loss we took on Feudalism, a loss which we believe to have been caused in part by other civs' reluctance to make deals that would provide us with gold to fight you with. We therefore regard getting Engineering from you as a matter of simple justice.)
Ok, it will take lots of time though. So it's up for you to decide if the wait is worth it.
13. If applicable, Vox will sell or trade its free industrial and modern techs to Gathering Storm on terms at least as favorable as those on which it provides them to any other nation. This includes giving Gathering Storm an equal opportunity to pay with techs or other commodities rather than gold. Commitments required in return for land in your new home will not count in this regard, however. (This protects against your making excessive demands for thoe techs as a way to exact revenge, just in case you might consider such a thing, while providing you with reasonable compensation. It is my hope, however, that our teams will be on good enough terms to make this provision mostly superfluous.)
Ok.
14. Vox will at no time now or in the future initiate, participate in, or encourage any embargo against GS in any matters of trade whatsoever. This includes, but is not limited to, Technology, Luxuries, Resources, Maps, or any other material or immaterial elements of the PTWDG. It applies both to formal embargos and informal arrangements or understandings that would tend to have a similar effect. (Again, I hope we're just being paranoid.)
No.
Would you have agreed to a term that obliges you to not wage war against, for example, RP "at no time now or in the future"?
We dont plan any embargoes and you dont plan wars with RP, but it may happen and it's not an option we want to block.
15. If any former Voxian city transferred to GS attempts to flip back to Vox, Vox will reject the city when asked. Should a mistake be made in handling that, or if some quirk of MP prevents you from having an opportunity to reject the flip, Vox will immediately gift the city back to GS. (The purpose of this one is obvious. )
Ok.
16. The city of Dissidentville will be an exception to the 18-turn evacuation period. Vox will either hand over or abandon Dissidentville (in the latter case, probably by disbanding with a settler sped up by disbanding units), at GS's choice, within the next seven turns. Should this provision undercut Vox's ability to evacuate population equivalent to its current population within 18 turns, GS will grant a suitable extension to compensate. (Dissidentville adds very little to your production capacity, and it's close enough to our core that we'd rather get a city there going sooner.)
Ok.
17. It is understood by both sides that the spirit of this agreement that is important, not just its letter. Neither side will attempt to use technicalities to take unfair advantage of the other or to circumvent the intent of the agreement. (Self-evident, I hope.)
Yep. 
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Last edited by Eli on 18-06-2003 at 22:22
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:29
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Ok. Beta, can you send nbarclay our official reply? And maybe invitation to a chat, so agree on the remaining small points.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:29
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quote:
Legos has said they can send a worker with the settler to build the new city so it will be size 2. |
For the purposes of pop-rushing a Spearman, to defend the city from the huge bunch of Barbarians on Lego Minor.
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Jon Miller
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I am going for a bit
I understand that there will still be a Vox nation and I understand that there will still be a Vox nation when I truen
Jon Miller
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Beta
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Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:29
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Nathan - Vox's response:
quote:
Greetings People of Vox Controli, |
Greetings.
quote:
1. Vox will have up to 18 turns, or until workers and settlers equaling its current population (with settlers counting as two pop points), whichever comes first, to evacuate. During that time, only workers and settlers will be produced unless Gathering Storm grants an exception for some special purpose. (This addresses both your fear of not having time to get enough out and our belief that it should be possible.), |
Agreed.
quote:
3. When leaving, Vox promises not to raze any of it's worked tiles or remaining cities. (This includes abandoning cities by building settlers without GS's consent.) Vox also agrees not to sell any city improvements other than barracks and cultural improvements. (We don't want to spend huge amounts of gold or shields replacing improvements you can get just a handful of pocket change for selling.), |
Agreed
quote:
4. Vox will not allow any landings of forces other than GS on it's territory during the evacuation period. Any such forces already there will be asked to leave. (The original version referred to "hostile" forces, leaving an at least theoretically interesting loophole regarding forces claiming not to be hostile.), |
Agreed. (and there are no foreign forces on our soil now.)
quote:
8. Up to 2 GS War Chariots may patrol Voxian territory during the evacuation. GS and Vox will attempt to minimize interference between GS's patrols and Vox's unit movements. Aside from warriors needed as MPs to address happiness problems, Vox will keep its units outside its cities to avoid ambiguities in verifying numbers and types of troops. (Verification would be worthless in a city showing a veteran pike, and not worth much more in a city showing a veteran spear or veteran or elite immortal. Also, concern about freedom of movement runs in both directions.), |
Agreed.
quote:
And some additional provisions:
11. Vox will not use pop rushing in any city without GS's approval. (Assuming you want to evacuate as much population as possible, pop rushing will not be in your best interest anyhow, and we prefer not to inherit unhappiness from additional pop rushing.), |
Agreed.
quote:
12. Vox will give Gathering Storm Engineering when research on that is completed. (Were it not for your attack on us and all the gold we had to spend rushing troops to defend ourselves in the early stages, we would almost certainly have researched it ourselves long ago. We would therefore consider it grossly unfair for you to try to charge us for it, nor would your simply refusing to provide it to us at all remedy the problem. Receiving Engineering from you would also help make up for the huge loss we took on Feudalism, a loss which we believe to have been caused in part by other civs' reluctance to make deals that would provide us with gold to fight you with. We therefore regard getting Engineering from you as a matter of simple justice.), |
Agreed.
quote:
13. If applicable, Vox will sell or trade its free industrial and modern techs to Gathering Storm on terms at least as favorable as those on which it provides them to any other nation. This includes giving Gathering Storm an equal opportunity to pay with techs or other commodities rather than gold. Commitments required in return for land in your new home will not count in this regard, however. (This protects against your making excessive demands for thoe techs as a way to exact revenge, just in case you might consider such a thing, while providing you with reasonable compensation. It is my hope, however, that our teams will be on good enough terms to make this provision mostly superfluous.), |
Agreed.
quote:
14. Vox will at no time now or in the future initiate, participate in, or encourage any embargo against GS in any matters of trade whatsoever. This includes, but is not limited to, Technology, Luxuries, Resources, Maps, or any other material or immaterial elements of the PTWDG. It applies both to formal embargos and informal arrangements or understandings that would tend to have a similar effect. (Again, I hope we're just being paranoid.), |
Do not agree.
As Eli stated - "Would you have agreed to a term that obliges you to not wage war against, for example, RP "at no time now or in the future"?
We dont plan any embargoes and you don't plan wars with RP, but it may happen and it's not an option we want to block."
My comment would be " This is going to be a long game. We very much plan on laying low for quite sometime, but this is something that could be pulled out in 2000 years or so and referenced as a form of Voxian treachery. By then we will have had to earn each others trust and friendship over the intervening years - and that will be worth more than a 2000 year old treaty. If you see my point. I also see the recent 'thawing' of relations going a long way to making this clause less relevant."
If this is a make-it-or-break-it clause - we will agree, but the commentary above still applies. Trust will be more important than a treaty.
quote:
15. If any former Voxian city transferred to GS attempts to flip back to Vox, Vox will reject the city when asked. Should a mistake be made in handling that, or if some quirk of MP prevents you from having an opportunity to reject the flip, Vox will immediately gift the city back to GS. (The purpose of this one is obvious. ), |
Agreed.
quote:
16. The city of Dissidentville will be an exception to the 18-turn evacuation period. Vox will either hand over or abandon Dissidentville (in the latter case, probably by disbanding with a settler sped up by disbanding units), at GS's choice, within the next seven turns. Should this provision undercut Vox's ability to evacuate population equivalent to its current population within 18 turns, GS will grant a suitable extension to compensate. (Dissidentville adds very little to your production capacity, and it's close enough to our core that we'd rather get a city there going sooner.), |
Agreed. Please see my earlier PM regarding the movement of units from Dissdientville to The Voice.
quote:
17. It is understood by both sides that the spirit of this agreement that is important, not just its letter. Neither side will attempt to use technicalities to take unfair advantage of the other or to circumvent the intent of the agreement. (Self-evident, I hope.), |
Agreed.
As I am editing Eli's post here - I presume the other clauses were already agreed to or were non-contentious to start with.
Let me know if this is acceptable. Or do we need to work on the wording for clause 14. We can chat if necessary.
And my post of earlier today explained our moves. We would like to move more units to Dissidentville for the proposed move - but we do not want it mistaken for an offensive action.
.... Beta of Vox.
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Beta
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Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:29
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My response of this morning - just to make sure they know we are on-side. And to discuss details.
Hello Nathan.
Greetings to the People of Gathering Storm.
With the deal being acceptable to both, we are at peace. Again, as stated in public, Vox appreciates the position taken by GS as both noble and generous.
Now for a few details - pulllllease take the catapults. As the population decreases, our revenue falls and we could do with less units. We have started liquidating some units in the north. A numbeof workers and settlers are already produced. Things are winding down nicely.
We had to move two warriors into D'ville for disorder control. I will be cashing one in next turn to speed up the worker production there. And I may need to move a spear in. All other southern units will remain north of the city. We expect to be finished in D'ville in 5 turns - at which point - we will move all our units into the city and gift it to you. The units will be moved out of the capitol the next turn.
After taking the catapults - we will settle on peace again. And then we wil grant a ROP agreement so your WC's can traverse North Estonia more easily.
I'm sure there will be more details to work on - so this may be a Vox Daily Peace Report.
Any questions - let us know.
quote:
nbarclay wrote on 23-06-2003 15:24:
(Copies to Beta, Eli, and Jon)
Greetings People of Vox Controli,
Gathering Storm has decided that removing the no-embargo provision from the treaty in the interest of goodwill between our nations is acceptable to us, and has officially ratified the peace treaty as thus amended (with the subsequent provisions renumbered accordingly). Good luck in your evacuation and in your new homes. Please let us know if you would like our help in planning the evacuation.
Sincerely,
The People of Gatheing Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist
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18-06-2003 14:49
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