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Sava is offline Sava
King
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Mar 2001
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  Old Post 18-06-2003 18:52
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&quot;Jesus Box&quot; Exposed As Fake Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote:
'Jesus box' exposed as fake

JERUSALEM --A stone box touted as the oldest archaeological evidence of Jesus is, in fact, a well-crafted fake, Israeli archaeological experts say.

The box, an object known as an ossuary, was said to have contained the bones of Jesus' brother James.

Carved on one side is an inscription in the ancient language of Aramaic bearing the legend: "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus."

Officials with Israel's Antiques Authority announced Wednesday that while the box may date from the correct era, the inscription is a forgery added at a much later date.

"The inscription appears new, written in modernity by someone attempting to reproduce ancient written characters," the officials said in the statement.

They said that a panel of archeological experts had agreed unanimously with the findings.

The box first came to public attention in October last year when French archaeologist Andre Lemaire identified and translated the inscription.

Writing in the Biblical Archaeology Review last year Lemaire, an expert in ancient scripts, said it was "very probable" that the box belonged to Jesus' brother James. (Evidence of Jesus?)

However, after months of detailed examination of the box and the inscription the team of Israeli experts concluded that the finding was incorrect.

"The ossuary is real. But the inscription is fake," the director of Israel's Antiquities Authority, Shuka Dorfman, told Reuters.

"What this means is that somebody took a real box and forged the writing on it, probably to give it a religious significance," Dorfman added.

The committee said another indication that the box was not all it was claimed to be was that the stone from which it was hewn was more likely to have originated in Cyprus or northern Syria than ancient Israel.

However, Oded Golan, the Israeli owner of the "James ossuary," dismissed the findings.

"I am certain the ossuary is real, I am certain that the committee is wrong regarding its conclusions," he said.

Golan had earlier said he had problems with the committee and its methods of investigation saying they had "preconceived notions."

He said he had bought the ossuary in the mid-1970s from a dealer in the Old City of Jerusalem for about $200, but he was unable to remember the dealer's name.

Ossuaries were commonly used by Jewish families between 20 B.C. and A.D. 70 to store the bones of their loved ones

While most scholars agree that Jesus existed, no physical evidence from the first century has ever been conclusively tied with his life.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright 2003 CNN. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report.

Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/scienc....box/index.html

In case you are keeping track at home. There is NO physical evidence that suggests Jesus existed. I think someone did exist, but obviously without all the mythical mumbo jumbo.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 18-06-2003 18:56
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Old news...they announced it was a fake months ago, IIRC

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
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Sep 1999
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  Old Post 18-06-2003 18:57 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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Don't you mean "James Box" ?

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Jun 2000
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  Old Post 18-06-2003 18:57 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Last year, actually.

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
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  Old Post 18-06-2003 18:59 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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No, you know-it-alls are wrong.
It was announced today.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Jun 2000
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  Old Post 18-06-2003 19:03 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Actually, Sloww, I read something about this quite a while ago. While this particular announcement may have been today, basically about a month or two after the box was discovered (and I started the thread on that, if you may remember), it was already largely considered to have been faked.

Q Cubed is offline Q Cubed
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Apr 1999
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  Old Post 18-06-2003 19:03 Visit Q Cubed's homepage!
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jesus is a religious figure. he is more a matter of faith than concrete proof.

Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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  Old Post 18-06-2003 19:03
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quote:
Don't you mean "James Box" ?
Blame CNN

rah is offline rah
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 18-06-2003 19:16
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If I wasn't so lazy, I'd do a search, since we've had a few thread about this a while back.

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
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Sep 1999
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  Old Post 18-06-2003 19:50 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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You could do a search, and you'd still be lazy.
The discussion was on the finding of the box.
Run back outside and play with the other ferrets.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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May 1999
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  Old Post 18-06-2003 20:11
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No actually there was at least another thread on it when they tried to put the box on exhibition in Toronto.

Of course Mr Golan would want the box to be real, he has a lot of vested interest in it.

Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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  Old Post 18-06-2003 20:20
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Personally, I just want to see evidence confirming he DID exist, or DIDN'T exist. I don't care if he did or didn't, I just want to know for sure.

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
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Sava, take it on faith. It won't hurt you, it really won't.

Q Cubed is offline Q Cubed
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  Old Post 18-06-2003 20:34 Visit Q Cubed's homepage!
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religion is a matter of faith. trying to prove it with physical evidence goes against the very nature of religion.

Sirotnikov is offline Sirotnikov
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Feb 2000
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  Old Post 18-06-2003 20:49
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quote:
Jesus artefact 'a fake'

An ancient burial casket, claimed by its owner to contain the bones of Jesus' brother, has been declared a fake by Israeli antiquities experts. (BBC)

The small ossuary, inscribed "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" in Aramaic, was hailed as the oldest archaeological link to the New Testament.

But after studying the first century artefact, Israel's Antiquities Authority says the inscription is not authentic.

The ossuary, which is about 50 centimetres (20 inches) long, was revealed to the world last November at a Washington press conference held by the Biblical Archaeology Review.

A number of experts who inspected the small limestone box at the time said they found no reason to doubt its authenticity.

Ancient written characters

But Israel's Antiquities Authority said its own investigation carried out by several committees of experts concluded the inscription was fake.

"The inscription appears new, written in modernity by someone attempting to reproduce ancient written characters," it said in a statement.

The ossuary's owner, Israeli collector Oded Golan, dismissed the authority's findings.

"I am certain the ossuary is real," he said. "I am certain the committee is wrong regarding its conclusions".

Mr Golan said he bought the ossuary from an antiques dealer in Jerusalem in the mid-1970s for around $200.

However, police are interviewing dealers in Jerusalem's Old City following suspicions that the ossuary was bought only a few months ago.



quote:
Burial Box Not from Jesus Brother -Israeli Experts
Wed June 18, 2003 09:25 AM ET
By Corinne Heller
JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israeli archaeological experts said on Wednesday an inscription on an ancient stone box suggesting it once contained the bones of Jesus's brother, James, was a forgery.

The burial box and its Aramaic inscription "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" had excited speculation that it could be the earliest physical reference to the founder of Christianity outside the New Testament.

But the director of Israel's Antiquities Authority, Shuka Dorfman, called it a hoax.

"The ossuary is real. But the inscription is fake. What this means is that somebody took a real box and forged the writing on it, probably to give it a religious significance," Dorfman told Reuters after a news conference on the matter.

James, who was believed to have been stoned to death in 62 A.D., is mentioned in the Gospels as Jesus's brother. Jews and Protestants accept this but Catholics -- who believe Christ's mother Mary was a virgin all her life -- say he was a cousin.

Dr Gideon Avni, the archaeologist who chaired a committee of archaeological experts investigating the find's provenance since March, told reporters the conclusion was unanimous.

The committee concluded that "even if the ossuary is authentic, there is no reason to assume the bones of Jesus's brother were inside," and that the stone of the box was more typical of Cyprus and northern Syria than ancient Israel.

The committee's report said the inscription of the "James Ossuary" cut through the stone's patina, or natural fossilized sheen, and appeared to be in modern text, written by someone attempting to reproduce ancient biblical fonts.

However, the experts could not pinpoint the time when the inscription was forged.

An Israeli antiquities collector bought the ossuary in the 1970s but had no idea of its significance. Last year he invited Andre Lemaire, a renowned French scholar of ancient texts, to examine it. Lemaire concluded the inscription was genuine.

Ossuaries were used by Jews in Jerusalem from 10 B.C. to A.D. 70 to hold skeletal remains of bodies near caves. Many believed that once decomposed, the dead could be resurrected with the coming of the Messiah.

Only a few hundred ossuaries of the thousands unearthed contain inscriptions, reserved for the dead of high status.



quote:
Experts: Ossuary inscription a fake
By STEVE WEIZMAN

JERUSALEM (AP) - An inscription purporting to link an ancient burial box to Jesus' brother James is a modern day forgery with no link to New Testament figures, Israel's Antiquities Authority said Wednesday.

The ossuary, used to bury human bones in ancient times, had been hailed by some in the archeology world as an extraordinary discovery. The box read "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus."

In the Bible, Matthew 13:55 refers to James as Jesus' brother. He later became head of the church in Jerusalem, according to the New Testament.

Israeli officials on Wednesday described the inscription, as well as another purported archeological marvel, the "Yoash inscription," as "forgeries."

"The inscriptions, possibly inscribed in two separate stages, are not authentic," the Antiquities Authority said in a statement.

The James inscription cut through the ancient limestone box's patina, a thin coating acquired with age, the experts said, proving the writing was not ancient.

"The inscription appears new, written in modernity by someone attempting to reproduce ancient written characters," the Antiquities Authority statement said.

The officials reached their conclusions after intensive exams by several committees of experts, the authority said.

Oded Golan, the Israeli owner of the ossuary, dismissed the officials' findings.

"I am certain that the committee is wrong regarding its conclusions," Golan said Wednesday. He had previously complained that the committee had "preconceived notions."

The Israel Antiquities Authority and the Jerusalem police launched separate investigations into the two items after Golan offered one for sale.

The Yoash inscription is a shoebox-sized tablet from about the ninth century BC inscribed with 15 lines of ancient Hebrew with instructions for maintaining the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.

When it was first disclosed two years ago, it caused a stir in the archeological world, with some experts calling it a rare confirmation of biblical narrative.

But a biblical language professor, Avigdor Horowitz, who served on one of the investigating committees, said not one inscribed passage on the tablet was without a linguistic mistake.

"The person who wrote the inscription was a person who thinks in modern Hebrew," he told a news conference in Jerusalem. "A person thinking in biblical Hebrew would see it as ridiculous."

The existence of the James ossuary was disclosed last November at a news conference in Washington by the Biblical Archaeology Review.

Israel Antiquities Authority head Shuka Dorfman said the ossuary itself was not examined because its authenticity as an ancient burial box was not in question. The practice of reburying Jewish remains ended around AD 70.

"The box is original; probably we have in our storeroom hundreds of the same or similar ossuaries. The inscription is false," he said.

The artifact had been valued at $1.35 million to $2.7 million Cdn, based on the claimed link with Jesus.

Robert Eisenman, who wrote a book on Jesus' brother, studied the box and said the writing on the box, written in two different hands, along with the artifact's sudden appearance, made its authenticity questionable.

"I always considered the timing of the James ossuary very odd and worrisome," he said. "There was a spate of books on James and his importance in 1997 and 1998, then the box appeared."

The ossuary, exhibited at the Royal Ontario Museum in November and December 2002, developed cracks en route to Toronto from Israel. The cracks extended through the latter parts of the inscription, now deemed a forgery. The museum's conservation staff made efforts to redress the damage.

Golan said he bought the James ossuary in the mid-1970s from an antiquities dealer in the Old City of Jerusalem for about $270 Cdn, but he said he could not remember the dealer's name.

Antiquities inspectors, who have questioned several Old City dealers, were also checking suspicions Golan bought the ossuary only a few months ago. In such a case, those involved in the sale could be prosecuted for dealing in stolen goods.

The police investigation into how the box was acquired will continue regardless of the committee's findings.

Dorfman said the antiquities experts made a purely scientific examination of the artifacts, without trying to prove or disprove any allegations against Golan.




NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE IN STORIES:

Reuters says:
"An Israeli antiquities collector bought the ossuary in the 1970s but had no idea of its significance."

AP says:
"Golan said he bought the James ossuary in the mid-1970s from an antiquities dealer in the Old City of Jerusalem for about $270 Cdn, but he said he could not remember the dealer's name.

Antiquities inspectors, who have questioned several Old City dealers, were also checking suspicions Golan bought the ossuary only a few months ago. In such a case, those involved in the sale could be prosecuted for dealing in stolen goods."


BBC says:
"Mr Golan said he bought the ossuary from an antiques dealer in Jerusalem in the mid-1970s for around $200.

However, police are interviewing dealers in Jerusalem's Old City following suspicions that the ossuary was bought only a few months ago. "


Conclusion:
Reuters took a statement for a fact and didn't bother to check it's reality.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 18-06-2003 23:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Q Cubed
religion is a matter of faith. trying to prove it with physical evidence goes against the very nature of religion.


Not necessarily, seeing how Jesus of Nazareth is supposed to be historical.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
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Oct 2002
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  Old Post 19-06-2003 02:21
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UR:

As a Jewish Rabbi, what sort of archaeological record can we expect to find?

It would be nice to have some, but lacking the evidence does not rule against his existence. Absence of evidence cannot be evidence of absence.

Inverse Icarus is offline Inverse Icarus
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"Jesus" Exposed As Fake - Some fat Mexican with some CRUH-RAZY stories!

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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quote:
Originally posted by obiwan18
As a Jewish Rabbi, what sort of archaeological record can we expect to find?


You have to ask one of them.

quote:
Originally posted by obiwan18
It would be nice to have some, but lacking the evidence does not rule against his existence. Absence of evidence cannot be evidence of absence.


While that is true, the burden of proof lies with the believers.

Gatekeeper is offline Gatekeeper
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  Old Post 19-06-2003 09:21 Visit Gatekeeper's homepage!
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**shrug** It seems like there's a lot of fakery going on in the archaeological world. I can only wonder if some of it is due to some archaeologists abandoning detached scholarship for emotional ties to whatever they're working on.

Gatekeeper

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
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  Old Post 19-06-2003 09:29
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I'd say it's pretty obvious that Jesus existed. It'd be pretty difficult for a whole huge mythology to arise out of nowhere in the span of a few decades regarding a nonexistant person. However, there is nothing to suggest that he actually performed miracles (and a lot to suggest that he did not).

mrmitchell is offline mrmitchell
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  Old Post 19-06-2003 09:54
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Whut would a modern-day Jesus be like?

Jesus: "Hey, I can turn your water into wine. Would you worship me then?"
Some Dude: "I don't have any water, and I hate wine."
Jesus: "SINFUL DEMON! Oh...well....it's only in symbolism with the wine. I'll let it pass."
Jesus: "Well...I can turn your...Coke...a...Col-a into, uh, spirits."
Some Dude: "Spirits!?"
Jesus: "Booze."
Some Dude: "I've already got it mixed."

(I felt inspired. )

As for the James Box, it's impossible to convince Christians that there is no God and it's impossible to convince Atheists or non-Christians that there is a God. You're screwed if you actually try to bring in factual evidence, you know? (However I do think that scientific evidence would be very helpful for the worshippers.)

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
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Good News, now protestants won't be able to use this to attack the belief of the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God.

Asher is offline Asher
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quote:
perpetual virginity

What a curse.

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Yeah, that would suck.

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  Old Post 19-06-2003 10:08
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Yes, she gave the ultimate sacrifice for God. Suppose it panned out fairly well, if she's getting to buddy up with him now. But...really, would any human today do that? (I fear the onslaught of people who say they would, for they are all escaped from the sanitarium)

mindseye is offline mindseye
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  Old Post 19-06-2003 10:58
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quote:
Old news...they announced it was a fake months ago, IIRC


Actually it is news in the sense that something like this made the front page of the New York Times!

Usually, when nutty or religious phenomena are debunked, the story gets a fraction of the attention the original received. For example, many are still unaware that the Shroud of Turin was thoroughly debunked long ago.

What really bothers me is this business of virtually every "expert" who examined the ossuary immediately declaring it is clearly a fake for obvious reasons (two styles of handwriting (duh!), "new" characters written over ancient scratches, etc.). I recall at the time the ossuary first made the news, some "experts" had declared that it appeared to be authentic, statements which were unsurprisingly trumpeted in the press.

In light of the obvious evidence to the contrary, one can only wonder about that first round of "experts". Good lesson about journalism in there, too.

Az is offline Az
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Apr 2000
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  Old Post 19-06-2003 12:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Good News, now protestants won't be able to use this to attack the belief of the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God.


















Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 19-06-2003 12:43
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quote:
Originally posted by mindseye
In light of the obvious evidence to the contrary, one can only wonder about that first round of "experts". Good lesson about journalism in there, too.


I reckon we need to cut these experts some slack. For example, in this case the initial group of experts probably didn't have anybody knowledgable on biblical Hebrew. This is also a pretty crafty piece of work, using a genuine box and all.

The good thing is the truth always comes out after more analyses are made.

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quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Good News, now protestants won't be able to use this to attack the belief of the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God.


Please tell me this is humor.

 
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