19-06-2003 16:20									#31
	Increase Your PM Length

You're asking us to choose between racist, authoritarian extremists and, um, racist authoritarian extremists. Where's the choice?

	19-06-2003 16:32									#32
	Full PM-box? Change here!

You all know who I voted for.

CPA, Baby!!!

	19-06-2003 17:25									#33
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Ecthelion:

i don't know why it would shock or scare you... Americans are universally capitalistic (at least far more right-wing than communists) and have far more in common with German culture and the nazi quality of life than with soviet communism so americans preferring nazi germany is obvious...

and as for me, fascism obviously... from Pinochet to Salvatore, it's all better than any communist regime... well Trujillo's regime in the Dominican republic might have been a little too bad but still... moderate capitalism (which hardly trampled over the common man) combined with a strong social conservatism fits me pretty good.

about oppression though... fascism in idealogical nations probably wouldn't be racist. Fascism by its nature is nationalistic and when the nation translates to a race or etnic group (ie- Germany), then this nationalism equates to racism. Pinochet's loyalists were nationalistic but were they actually racist, what with Chile being made up of many ethnic groups, all of whom are Chileans? Wouldn't an American fascist state, being nationalistic, be embracive of all loyal Americans, no matter their race?


thanks

	19-06-2003 18:06									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: You're asking us to choose between racist, authoritarian extremists and, um, racist authoritarian extremists. Where's the choice?

Where's the racism in communism?

	19-06-2003 18:06									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Speer, while shortly after posting I realized that fascism per se just means a bourgeois dictatorship, I remembered that my thread asked for communism and national socialism. Now, national socialism should create associations slightly more negative than mere fascism. The result was shocking.

Would you say Hitler is better than Marx?

	19-06-2003 18:09									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Where's the racism in communism?

I've yet to meet a Marxist that isn't also racist.

	19-06-2003 18:20									#37
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

how is che a racist? or would he be a trotskyte

	19-06-2003 19:03									#38
	Put an end to popups!

Okay, I've never met an organised Marxist that isn't also racist, or at the very least prejudiced against people because of characteristics utterly beyond their control.

Every British Marxist I've met has been virulently anti-semetic.

	19-06-2003 19:05									#39
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

communis is democracy compared to fascism, so communist country eaaaaaasily

	19-06-2003 19:06									#40
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

There's nothing democratic about any possible practical way of implementing communist.

	19-06-2003 19:06									#41
	Suffering from ads?

I'm sure they haven't. You, being a bloody westerner, just misinterpreted critical attitude towards aggressive behaviour of The State as inherently anti-semitic?

	19-06-2003 19:08									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Absolutely not. I very much doubt you've ever met any members of the SWP?

	19-06-2003 19:10									#43
	Got spare money?

compared to fascism there is

	19-06-2003 19:10									#44
	Inflate your Upload Space

what is SWP and what do they say?

I'm just asking because I have absolutely nothing else to do now. do tell how your marxists are racists.

	19-06-2003 19:12									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

http://www.swp.org.uk/

	19-06-2003 19:16									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Those kind of "communists" tend to be anti-semitic because they think they have to be anti-US and, due to being pacifists most of the time (which is nonsensical concerning their ideology) also pro-Israel.

Back in the ol' days Israel was also considered an enemy of the pro-peace side of the curtain

	19-06-2003 19:17									#47
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Communism, even when thinking about the horrors made in its name in the "communist" regimes.

Hardcore fascism à la Hitler is less terrible than hardcore 'communism' à la Stalin / Mao. Hitler simply hadn't enough time to destroy everything he would have wanted to. Besides, even the master race of Germany wasn't living as well as the Yanks here think. Had the economic **** hit the fan before the end of nazism (nazis were terrible at economy, and were taking way too much debt), you can be sure most Germans would have lived a horrible life, politically as well as financially

Softcore fascism à la Pinochet / Franco is much worse than softcore 'communism' à la Tito / Castro. Individual opposition in the latter is made possible as long as the individual makes sure his opposition will have no result (i.e it is OK to criticize in front of the TV, but nothing more), and personal freedom are less restricted in softcore 'communist' regimes, which results in fewer murders.
Not to mention that softcore fascist regimes promote an extreme bigotry, which already makes me sick at the level America is experiencing now (very lw level compared to what you find in fascism).

	19-06-2003 19:24									#48
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

what about softcore communism à la Erich

	19-06-2003 19:32									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion what about softcore communism à la Erich

Better Honecker than Pinochet, clearly. But to be sure, I wouldn't enjoy being ruled by Erich one bit.
At least, he had less delusions of grandeur than Ceausescu... This guy somtimes tortured Romanians randomly for his little pleasure. But in his case, you can hardly talk about a communist or fascist or whatever dictatorship. The most accurate way to describe Ceausescu is Ubu-like dictatorship

	19-06-2003 19:34									#50
	Increase Your PM Length

he was shot

	19-06-2003 19:35									#51
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Communism, even when thinking about the horrors made in its name in the "communist" regimes.

What's with the quotes around the word communist?

	19-06-2003 19:38									#52
	Tired of ads?

"IRANIAN PROTESTS ARE NOT PRO-BUSH "



God forbid they applaud the Iranian protest, because that might bee seen as "groveling before the imperialist scum". So they concentrate their attention on the fact that they're not pro-bush.

Btw, I haven't seen anything anti-semitic, *Eif*. Or even Anti-Israeli. ( I probably wasn't searching too well ).

	19-06-2003 19:54									#53
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc What's with the quotes around the word communist?

The "communist" regimes were a twisted version of the ideals of communism, while fascist regimes did correspond to the ideals of fascism, that is order, discipline, and strong undisputed leaders.

The nazi totalitarianism would deserves quotes if it was described as "fascist", however, because it was much, much more than simple fascism. Especially since it was too much in favour of societal change to be in accordance with the deep societal conservatism / reactionarism which underlies fascism.

	19-06-2003 20:00									#54
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Wouldn't matter. I'd be dead in either one for being a "subversive."

-=Vel=-

	19-06-2003 20:02									#55
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The "communist" regimes were a twisted version of the ideals of communism,

I find that doubtful at least in the case of Lenin and the "soft core" commie states you cited earlier.

	19-06-2003 20:03									#56
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Btw, I haven't seen anything anti-semitic, *Eif*.

In the same way you now don't find anything openly racist on the BNP website...

	19-06-2003 20:09									#57
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I find that doubtful at least in the case of Lenin and the "soft core" commie states you cited earlier.

Communism is about the liberation of the working class. Softcore "communist" dictatorships hence don't correspond to the true meaning of communism. Communism requires the workers to have a say in their destiny, and not to be alienated by a new class of rulers once the old class (the bourgeois) are out.

It hasn't happened yet, except maybe in the Kibbutsim. I don't know about Latin America though.

	19-06-2003 20:11									#58
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

and maybe some Martian cultures...

	19-06-2003 20:46									#59
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc What's with the quotes around the word communist?

Well, according to their own ideology states like the USSR and the entire eastern block weren´t communist. Communism was seen as a class-less society which could only be build in the future (after the evil capitalists are defeated everywhere by the global proletarian revolution )

USSR and the rest described themselves as "Socialist", but had leading communist parties. I was quite surprised when I read the first time that Western European states are labeled as "socialist" (when they actually had/have capitalism with social-democratic governments) while the USSR etc. used the same term to describe itself.

	19-06-2003 21:00									#60
	Inflate your Upload Space

So...in other words, we should treat it pretty much the same way as Transporters and Warp Drive.

Good sci-fi material, but not too useful in the real world....

-=Vel=-