10-07-2003 13:28									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master Aztecs werent in North America. They were in Central America and South America.

Wrong the Aztecs where in North America also like Mexico and New Mexico and Texas and the Southwestern America.

	10-07-2003 14:24									#152
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Pang Israel isnot a major military power because it have nuclear weapon. Your nuclear weapon are useless against the Palestinian Freedom Fighter who attack you inside of Israel or the Palestinian upraiseing against your illegal by INTERNATION LAW occup of the PALESTINIAN PEOPLE HOMELAND than your builting illegal by INTERNATIONAL LAW settlement on occup land.

Than if you use your missile to destory the Holy Cities of Mecca you will the whole world againt your criminal terrorist nation that doesnot oksay INTERNATIONAL LAW. THERE MORE MUSLUM ROUND THE WORLD THAN ANY OTHER RELIGIOUN IN THE WORLD>

	10-07-2003 19:04									#153
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CharlesBHoff, take it to the off topic forum. This about the civs in Conquests, not for you to defend the scum that murder children for no reason. Having a huge Muslim population means very little. As Bertrand Russell said, "The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd."

Israel should obviously be included, they have had a major impact on the world. The fact that people become so angry and so passionate when discussing the issue is proof that they must be added, whether they are a military power or not.

	10-07-2003 19:29									#154
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Israel should be included regardless if they're a major power or not. Without them, any ME scenario would be a laugh.

And CharlesBHoff:

quote: Originally posted by CharlesBHoff Pang Israel isnot a major military power because it have nuclear weapon.... blah....

It's still panag. Always remember: pa-nag.

	10-07-2003 19:50									#155
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There's an "A", damnit, an "A"!!

	10-07-2003 20:03									#156
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This has probably been brought up before, but I think the contrasting opinions about whether Israel merits inclusion arises from mixing up Jewish or Hebrew history and the history of the state of Israel...

I would say that Jewish/Hebrew civilization, that is the history of its people and culture, certainly has had a major impact on world history and cultures, especially when you consider its proportionally tiny population. It is a 3000 year old (at least) continuous civilization, which is pretty rare in the world. It has produced works of global, timeless significance, in many different eras and regions, no need to go into detail here, I think anyone with knowledge of world history would agree.

The state of Israel is another story. First of all, can you even link the modern state with the ancient one, in a historical sense? I'd say only superficially. The latter rose organically in its time, the former... well, has a much more complicated origin than that, but is largely a nation of recent immigrants (mostly, certainly those who have been in power) with modern, mostly European principles and values. What other nation in the region has a Philharmonic orchestra?

Personally, I'd love to see a Hebrew civ in the game, in fact I've made one and play it all the time. It's essentially, "what if the House of David held the state together, hung on against the Babylonians and Persians, battled Rome to a standstill, and took it from there?" kind of thing. But that's just me. It's also a valid point that the state of Israel, in either incarnation, never dominated its region for more than a couple of generations if even that, and so doesn't really belong alongside China, Rome, etc., or even the Aztecs or Carthaginians. I think you can make the same arguement for some civs that are included already, i.e. Korea, Iroquois, but whatever. So I guess it comes down to whatthe criteria for inclusion is, and a comparison against the existing civs.

For a Hebrew civ, I'd think the civ traits could be any two of the six except Expansionist. I personally think they're Scientific and either Industrious or Commercial. Unique Unit, how about the Maccabee?

Just my 2 cents.

	10-07-2003 20:17									#157
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Love 'em or hate 'em, the Israelis should be in there. I would dispute the point about the continuous 3,000 year old civilization - Judaism has changed numerous times (generally, as with all cultures, in response to outside stimuli, too often invasion and genocide) in its long history, and the Judaism of Moses is quite different than that practiced by the mystics of the Kaballah... although in my opinion, it's quite similar to the modern state of Israel.

How about Religious and Industrious? The religious is hard to dispute... the Jewish god is the god of Christianity and Islam, after all, meaning that YHWH is the god a majority of the world's people profess to worship.

Industrious is appropriate given the modern state of Israel. Commercial less so. Sure, Jews have often been notable merchants and bankers, but the "Jewish banker" is a stereotype based in the medival era, when Christian and Islamic rulers would appoint Jews to positions of prominence due to the Jews' ability to trade with both religions.

The modern state of Israel, on the other hand, has a notoriously shaky economy...

...it's hard to dispute the industriousness, though. Of course, modern Israel's military is impressive, but that's debatable (at least, military types like to debate the worthiness of the Israeli military and its tactics). The sheer amount of work and endurance the Israeli people undergo, for (in my opinion) both good and bad reasons, is incredible. It rivals any highly disciplined culture. Francis Fukuyama would be proud.

Besides, there's only 1 Religious/Industrious civ in the game currently... and they'd be neighbors!

There's also an arguement to be made, in my view, for switching China to be S/I and making Israel M/I.

But I doubt anyone will ever include the Jews/Hebrews/Israelis as a civ. Too contenious, on both sides. Let's face it, the world is full of Zionists and Anti-Semites.

	10-07-2003 20:42									#158
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Shiek is right. (As for world powers, it certainly has something over Poland anyday...)

As for Israel, I think that it is ridiculous that it is not included. Why can't these guys just bother to stick them in? They are far more deserving, simply for influence alone, than the Incas, the Mayans, the Sumerians, the Hittites (!), or whoever else they stick in. Let's just hope that despite not being in the Mesopotamia scenario, they still wind up in the game itself. However, I doubt it.

	10-07-2003 20:49									#159
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quote: Originally posted by History Guy As for Israel, I think that it is ridiculous that it is not included. Why can't these guys just bother to stick them in? They are far more deserving, simply for influence alone, than the Incas, the Mayans, the Sumerians, the Hittites (!), or whoever else they stick in. Let's just hope that despite not being in the Mesopotamia scenario, they still wind up in the game itself. However, I doubt it.

I seriously doubt it too.

The screwed up thing is, Islam strictly forbids icons... yet Abu Bakr, the successor to Muhammed, is depicted in Civ. I'm not saying he shouldn't be, but why should he be in there while the Jews are not?

There is a rightful marketing reason NOT to stick the Israelis/Hebrews in the game, but it's a shame that reactionary marketing prevails. After all, the Hebrew civilization could be put in with the best of all traits.

I think putting in Moses or David is far too contentious. Ben-Gurion would be a great choice, IMO: a good combination of militancy and conviction, a ruler generally respected throughout the world by students of history, even many avowed enemies of Israel.

Vladimir Jacobitsky or Ariel Sharon would probably NOT be good choices, obviously. But then again, why not Umar instead of Abu Bakr? Oh well...

	10-07-2003 23:04									#160
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Hmmmm, on the CFC main page, they have the Sumerians, Portugese and Dutch as the new civs. I doubt that Thunderfall would post this on the main page, without checking with the "Beta Testers."

As for the Hebrews, I'm sure some Jewish modders will create the Israeli civ, for all of us to put in. I think either, the Sumerians and Hittites are going to get replaced in my mod.

	10-07-2003 23:53									#161
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Thunderfall is a beta-tester.

	11-07-2003 01:02									#162
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Than America have no bussien being in Iraq and I than going to vote for than anti-war president next time around. We lost 70 man already in Iraq to freedom fighter than our idiot prejury committing president is unfit to be president of the US.

Israel is than nation that mistreat unjewish people like the Palestinian people. They have no part in the founding of Islam religion at all in fact they try to betray the founder of Islam to his enemies against the oak they swore to defense him in Medina.

Haveing nuclear weapon doesnot make you than major military power at all when many people around the world know you as than people who donot respect civil right or human right lookl the way they police beat up Palestinian people for n o good reason.

	11-07-2003 01:36									#163
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quote: Than America have no bussien being in Iraq and I than going to vote for than anti-war president next time around. We lost 70 man already in Iraq to freedom fighter than our idiot prejury committing president is unfit to be president of the US.

What are you talking about? Take your ranting to the off topic.

quote: Israel is than nation that mistreat unjewish people like the Palestinian people. They have no part in the founding of Islam religion at all in fact they try to betray the founder of Islam to his enemies against the oak they swore to defense him in Medina

And because Israel didn't create Islam they shouldn't be in the game, is that what you are saying?

quote: Haveing nuclear weapon doesnot make you than major military power at all when many people around the world know you as than people who donot respect civil right or human right lookl the way they police beat up Palestinian people for n o good reason.

Again, most people here want to discuss conquests.

	11-07-2003 01:53									#164
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to my knowledge, islam is basically a spin-off of christianity which was basically a spin-off of judiasm. as far as i know...

the above statement was more of an acknowledgement than what that post ever deserves...

	11-07-2003 01:59									#165
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I started a separate thread on my topic

Last edited by Wycoff on 11-07-2003 at 20:20

	11-07-2003 02:23									#166
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As far as I know, there's no evidence of the Dutch being included.

	11-07-2003 02:56									#167
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quote: As far as I know, there's no evidence of the Dutch being included.

In the screenshots taken from the Gamespot preview, and topped above in the screenshot thread, there is a distinctly Caesar looking Queen Wilhelmina (place holder) appearing on the foreign advisor screen. Whether the Netherlands are just in a scenario or a civ in the game seems to be up in the air.

	11-07-2003 03:15									#168
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quote: Originally posted by CharlesBHoff Israel is than nation that mistreat unjewish people like the Palestinian people. They have no part in the founding of Islam religion at all in fact they try to betray the founder of Islam to his enemies against the oak they swore to defense him in Medina. Haveing nuclear weapon doesnot make you than major military power at all when many people around the world know you as than people who donot respect civil right or human right lookl the way they police beat up Palestinian people for n o good reason.

You really want to come to a board display your unrestrained ignorance?

Of course having nukes makes you a factor are your crazy?
You mean mistreats them by letting them vote and be members of parliment? As opposed to all caring and fair treatment that say non muslim get in many Muslim countries such as say being killed for having a bible?
Man you are a fool.

	11-07-2003 03:51									#169
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Back on topic:

The un-official, official civs are the;

Mayas
Incas
Summerians
Hitties (Spelling)
Portuguese
Dutch (Netherlands, Holland, Pais Bays, whichever..)

That means 1 is left, if there are only 7 in. I think it will be either the Poles, Hebrews, or a S.E. Asia civ (Siam, Khmer)

	11-07-2003 05:02									#170
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That's "Hittites".

And I'd very much like to see the Khmers and the Nubians in as well.

	11-07-2003 06:28									#171
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Well lets put it this way. I would like to see Israel or Nubia as the final civ. Israel for importance Nubia to fill in the World map.

	11-07-2003 06:44									#172
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The Arsenal,

This one is definitely just for a scenario. If there was a Dutch leader, he or she would have been shown. If anything, it suggests to me that the Dutch aren't included, which is rather disappointing, but no more than not seeing the Israelites.

Also, I'm not quite sure that there are only 7 civs. Gamespot has gotten other things wrong. If Firaxis says 8, I'm inclined to agree with them.

Also, is there any chance of seeing this maddening dispute about Israel end? This thread has been hijacked!!

	11-07-2003 07:15									#173
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quote: Mayas Incas Summerians Hitties (Spelling) Portuguese Dutch (Netherlands, Holland, Pais Bays, whichever..)

I like the idea of having the Portuguese.


So are the new seven civs also going to be the only new civs for the campaigns or will we see some civs in the scenarios that are not in the larger game? As long as Conquests provides art for some of the civs that have been suggested I will be pleased.

	11-07-2003 08:05									#174
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Yeah lets stop the political stuff and just talk about the new civs, ok?

	11-07-2003 13:13									#175
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I think the dutch are in because of this screenshot

	11-07-2003 13:53									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Rolfski I think the dutch are in because of this screenshot

Damn, is that queen of yours ugly.



CharlesBHoff:

The questions you raise do not belong in this forum. We're a community of friends to discuss a game here. We're from all around the world and we and our governments have for certain different interests and political views. But we do not wish to discuss these things here. There is a good place to raise these questions and to post your opinion: The Off-Topic forum. Your contribution will be welcome there (well... or not, that depends on you).

If you can't find it, please use the link below. Thanks .

Forum for discussions around Iran, Iraq, Israel, North Korea, for France bashing and praising, for investigations whether the US president is an imbecile, a good genius or an evil genius and similar smart and stupid things. Oh, and you can express your opinion about East Timor, Greenland and the Easter Island there too. Or just spam, nobody cares.

	11-07-2003 19:18									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph CharlesBHoff: The questions you raise do not belong in this forum. We're a community of friends to discuss a game here. We're from all around the world and we and our governments have for certain different interests and political views. But we do not wish to discuss these things here. There is a good place to raise these questions and to post your opinion: The Off-Topic forum. Your contribution will be welcome there (well... or not, that depends on you).

So true... So true...

Because CharlesBHoff... If I see you posting this kind of stuff again in ANY of the On Topic Forums, you will get restricted from posting until you learn this lesson

	11-07-2003 19:37									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Ming So true... So true... Because CharlesBHoff... If I see you posting this kind of stuff again in ANY of the On Topic Forums, you will get restricted from posting until you learn this lesson

Blame Sid and Firaxis. The precedent of AOE/AOK showed that when you have distinctive (IE non-generic) nationalities in a long timespan, random map oriented, historical game you get nasty arguments - my civs more important than yours, your civ isnt really a civ etc. The interesting thing for me is how arbitrary the civ definitions become in a game with a timespan like this.

One more reason I see the TB, 6000 year, Historical, 4X genre (IE the Civ genre) as played out. Nonetheless I will probably get Civ3 someday just to see what all the fuss is about. Meanwhile Im having too much fun with Imp2 and SMAC, and the first game i intend to get when i get a better puter is EU.

	11-07-2003 21:33									#179
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Back on-topic... is everyone 100% sure that the Dutch and Portugese are "normal" civs? Can a beta-tester affirm this?

If this is the case, I'm dissappointed... not that they didn't contribute to history, but how Eurocentric can you get? And in terms of gameplay, how more crowed can "Europe" get?

I sincerely hope that the Portugese and Dutch did not make the list as normal civs. That would be a waste of Khmer, Ethiopians, Hebrews, Polynesians, etc., IMO.

Let's always remember that written history can be traced back beyond 4000BC and is not limited to the age of colonization and beyond.

	11-07-2003 21:45									#180
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I hope that the Portugese and Dutch are not in. Europe has England, France, Germany, Russia, Greece, Rome, Carthiginians, Celts, Vikings and Spain. And the Middle East has less then that. Out of the three spots that are remaining if the Portugese and Dutch dont make it I would want to see the Polynesians, Hebrews, Ethiopians or the Nubians.