19-06-2003 10:03									#31
	Suffering from ads?

The switch happened in the 1960s. Before that the south always voted Democrat but the Democrats came out for desegrigation and the Republicans came out against it thus the south switched to Republicans.

	19-06-2003 10:03									#32
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

As I said, the reversal was still happening (or hadn't happened at all) in the South (and other places). So it's not surprising.

	19-06-2003 10:06									#33
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Man I wish Republicans would actually read some of the Leftist stuff that Lincoln said. They sound soooo stupid saying they are the party of Lincoln.

	19-06-2003 10:09									#34
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Are you refering to the fake quotes some people like to bat around?

	19-06-2003 10:20									#35
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dino:

quote: and because Lincoln left behind some decidedly pro-labor statements

quote: As early as 1847 he had written, "To secure to each labourer the whole product of his labour, or as nearly as possible, is a most worthy object of any good government,"

quote: in 1860, he praised the right to strike, as then being exercised by the shoemakers of Lynn. His clear assertion of the labor theory of value in the 1861 message — "Labor is prior to, and . . . superior to capital" — and his answers to the addresses of workingmen abroad and at home gave a color of Marxism to his thinking. He was, surely, the best friend labor ever had in the White House.

Simply put, it's true--Republicans were, at one time, Liberal and Democrats were, at one time, conservative . If you have issue with this, I recommend you pick up any fine history book and check it out for yourself.

	19-06-2003 10:24									#36
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I never said otherwise. Now perhaps you could tell me what this has to do with the thread in anyway?

	19-06-2003 10:25									#37
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quote: Lincoln? A Republican elected by people in states that had outlawed slavery. It was the Democrats who fought to keep it in place.

Oh and by the way, Lincoln did not intend to outlaw slavery even several years after the civil war began. "But the Emancipation Proclomation", you cry out! Bah. It was a political move designed to start slave rebellions and cause general problems in the South. "But the 14th Amendment!" Note how late it came in the war?

	19-06-2003 10:27									#38
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It has to do with one of Sava's remarks... I think.

EDIT: getting back on track, is there anyone here who supports the protesters [actions]? We need someone to argue with

	19-06-2003 10:28									#39
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dino: rmsharpe let loose a falsehood in response to the assertion that Republicans didn't have a spotless civil rights record. Thus, the threadjack began, and I didn't see reason to remove it...it's more interesting than the original topic anyways.

And as for your "never said otherwise", I felt that it was believable and acceptable that you were saying that the Lincoln-as-commie-leftist theory was wrong. I felt you did this by disproving only one of his quotes. I felt it necessary to point out that in your same article, there were a few other quotes that were true. Please excuse me if I misunderstood.

---

Perhaps if we stopped using "Republican" and "conservative" and "Democrat" and "liberal" interchangeably, this could have been avoided.

	19-06-2003 10:34									#40
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker EDIT: getting back on track, is there anyone here who supports the protesters [actions]? We need someone to argue with

We may have to wait for the Euros to wake up; many of them are stridently anti-GM. Of course their state owned media runs clips night and day about how evil and dangerous GM foods are (complete rubbish) but this is due many because Europe is so far behind the rest of the developed world in GM technology and Euro politicians find anti-GM feelings to be a good excuse to put up protectionist trade barriers agaisnt foreign produce.

	19-06-2003 10:42									#41
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Oh yeah, by the way--I think GM foods are okay just as long as they don't get to interbreed with regular foods.

	19-06-2003 10:47									#42
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The political base of the Republican Party hasn't changed too much since its inception in anyway except race and geogrpahy. The GOP was the party of Big Business from the beginning, with strong support from the highly religious.

	19-06-2003 10:52									#43
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Oh yeah, by the way--I think GM foods are okay just as long as they don't get to interbreed with regular foods.

They are regular foods.

	19-06-2003 10:54									#44
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which is why its fundementally bad for america shi. zealots and self serving capitalists are bad for america.

a theocratic run away "free" market

	19-06-2003 11:41									#45
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by The Templar Gee, if you had and used mass transit this wouldn't really be a problem would it?

And if you had functional mass transit systems, more people might use them.

quote: Besides, what about letting the people exercise their right to assemble and petition the government for a redress? Those are constitutional - The right to petition the government for a redress is nothing more than a right to communicate. The right to assemble does not mean assemble anywhere, anytime, any way you feel is convenient, regardless of safety issues or infringement of other rights. If you're given a designated area to assemble, and choose to play games elsewhere to prove what a law ignoring badass you are, then you better make bail arrangements. [quote]your "right" to a convenient commute is not guaranteed.

Actually, freedom to move about without unreasonable hindrance is implied in several "guaranteed" rights, and private citizens have no "right" to interfere with the lawful activities of anyone.

quote: So suck it up.

Better to **** them up if the weenies get out of line. If someone blocks me, they'd better have a lot of reinforcement, because if they don't get out of my way, they'll be eating pavement.

	19-06-2003 11:46									#46
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hey! some of us posters are lefties

they do have a right to protests after all

	19-06-2003 11:53									#47
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Sure. And I support their right to protest. And I don't give a fair damn if they're left wing protesters, right wing protesters, or what have you. I am an equal opportunity "Get out of my face, or I'll pound your ****ing face into the pavement" mean SOB when people try to jerk me around.

I also support the right of authorities to reasonably control where they do it - not to get them out of sight, but to prevent them from deliberately interfere with others who aren't interested in their agenda.

In San Diego, when they had the '96 Republican National Convention at the SD Convention Center, local fuzz and the mayor (Golding, who had delusions of being a Republican candidate for Senate) designated a protest area blocks away and totally out of the traffic zone to and from the convention center area, when there was two sections of public park with nothing but grass right across the street. It would have been a perfectly usable space, but had the drawback of being visible to the convention and media. That type of restriction is BS, but keeping protesters from ****ing up traffic or local businesses is a whole different story.

	19-06-2003 11:56									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin We may have to wait for the Euros to wake up; many of them are stridently anti-GM. Of course their state owned media runs clips night and day about how evil and dangerous GM foods are (complete rubbish) but this is due many because Europe is so far behind the rest of the developed world in GM technology and Euro politicians find anti-GM feelings to be a good excuse to put up protectionist trade barriers agaisnt foreign produce.

Goooood Morning America! Euro-commie reporting for active duty.

Why are we anti-gm? Is it because we are being brainwashed by our goverment controlled media? Yeah, we don't have free press you know, yet. All we get to see on tv is our leaders hugging each other in solidarity, and some jolly-good marches for the goverment. We are so anxious to see what this new private madia is all about, does it mean we wont be seeing those music videos with singing children praising the state? No, I sure dont like the sound of that!

Why are we anti-gm? Is it because we let you test this food, before we put it to our mouths. It's called being cautious, I believe. Also many ppl don't like that food is patented to some individual company that-like microsoft- possibly wants ppl to pay annually for licensing their seeds.

Protectionist trade barriers? You do that too, you know. And banning "american cheese" from europe is a service to the humanity.

	19-06-2003 12:18									#49
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Why are we anti-gm? Is it because we let you test this food, before we put it to our mouths.

You don't want to put it into your mouth once I have tested it, believe me.

quote: Originally posted by laurentius Protectionist trade barriers? You do that too, you know. And banning "american cheese" from europe is a service to the humanity.

We're still trying to find a way to ban it here.

	19-06-2003 15:28									#50
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Why are we anti-gm? Is it because we are being brainwashed by our goverment controlled media? Yeah, we don't have free press you know, yet. All we get to see on tv is our leaders hugging each other in solidarity, and some jolly-good marches for the goverment. We are so anxious to see what this new private madia is all about, does it mean we wont be seeing those music videos with singing children praising the state? No, I sure dont like the sound of that! Why are we anti-gm? Is it because we let you test this food, before we put it to our mouths. It's called being cautious, I believe. Also many ppl don't like that food is patented to some individual company that-like microsoft- possibly wants ppl to pay annually for licensing their seeds.

As a leftist (American), I can tell you that this is utter, complete nonsense. They myth that GM foods aren't tested is simply false. Near as I can figure, this myth is an outright lie started by Greenpeace. GM foods in the market have been put through rigorous testing by the FDA and have been shown to be perfectly safe.

I'll repeat this: GM foods in the market have been thoroughly tested, and found to be completely safe.

As a humanitarian, I think GM foods are the key to saving humanity. It is estimated that such food have already saved a billion people from starving around the world, thanks to their higher yields and lower incidences of crop failure.

As an environmentalist, I believe GM foods are a key to having a cleaner environment, as they have been made to clean the atmosphere better than ordinary crops, and to prevent the typical damage and nutrient loss to the soil in which they are grown.

GM foods can help achieve many things that leftist have wanted to see for years. If it is a choice between Africans starving to death or eating GM foods, which do you think they would prefer?

Don't let anti-corporate attitudes (and believe me, I have a lot of them) blind you to the really powerful good GM foods can and do provide.

	19-06-2003 15:42									#51
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As a leftist european, i mostly agree with you Boris. However, I personally have absolutely no faith in whatever results FDA has. It's us-gov oraganisation, right? I dont really believe a thing us-gov says right now. So thats about it.

I do believe we can save millions of lives in developing countries with GM, but wasnt it India that had legal problems with a US corp. over potatoes and their patent?

Overall this subject needs to be reserached and regulated comprehensively.

	19-06-2003 20:50									#52
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quote: They are regular foods.

elaboration:

Regular Foods - foods not genetically altered by humanity. (breeding doesn't count. :tongue
GM Foods - foods that have been genetically altered by scientists.

The biggest difference between the two is that regular foods take decades to breed, but GMs only need enough time to find the gene that does whutever.

The reason for fear of interbreeding is that if a GM plant which is superstrong gets in the wild and breeds with an invasive plant that is a "relative" to it, it would grow everywhere and disrupt ecosystems. http://www.xs4all.nl/~mke/gmfood.htm

	19-06-2003 21:46									#53
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Death to all liberals who pratice freedom of speech.

That right is only reserved for conservatives.

	19-06-2003 21:56									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The thing is most Americans understand how GM crops work and they know that 99% of it is totally safe and effective and that the government screens/tests all of the crops before they're released on the market.

Actually, I doubt that's true. Most Americans have no clue about GM foods and aren't aware that most of our food supply is already GMed. We're talking about people who thnik WMDs have been found and that Iraq was behind 9/11. Americans are an ignorant bunch.

It is actually believed by the government that forcing food to be labeled GM in the US would hurt sales, which is why they don't require it, despite calls to do so, and despite that consumers have a right to know what goes into their food.

Least you think that corporations and the FDA look out for the consumer, remember, chicken and eggs weren't always a biohazard when raw. Not only that, but in many states, agricultural producers have gone as far as having laws passed which allow them to sue for damages if you present info that might hurt sales, regardless of whether or not it is true.

Not that I think GM foods are dangerous to anyone but small farmers who will be driven out of business by them.

	19-06-2003 21:57									#55
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I don´t see why GM food should be a leftist´s issue only.
I try to avoid that stuff (as most Euros do). but I don´t really care, whether you yankees will be finally eaten up by your own trees or not

	19-06-2003 22:29									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov GM foods in the market have been put through rigorous testing by the FDA and have been shown to be perfectly safe.

The FDA is charged with promoting the interests of producers and consumers, not just consumers. Guess who gets the short end of the stick when it comes to conflicts of interest, the guys with the lobbyists or us regular schleps?

We are, after all, talking about an agency which allowed a hormone which has been banned in ever other industrialize nationa on Earth, BgH. Furthermore, it has outlawed milk producers from displaying "No BgH" on their milk containers, because that would give the impression that the hormone was dangerous to humans. It is, and it's hell on the cows too.

Now, do you think that an agency which not merely allows, but promotes, a dangerous hormone in our food would be all that careful with GM foods?

Again, I don't see GM foods as inherently dangerous, but they screw small farmers and will increase poverty in the Third World.

	19-06-2003 22:38									#57
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I don't have a problem with GM foods. However, the patent laws governing them should be relaxed, partly to prevent companies getting a stranglehold on our food, and partly for practical reasons. If it was taken out of corporate hands altogether, well, I wouldn't complain.

	19-06-2003 22:42									#58
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quote: I also support the right of authorities to reasonably control where they do it - not to get them out of sight, but to prevent them from deliberately interfere with others who aren't interested in their agenda.

People who aren't involved shouldn't be inconveinenced!

	19-06-2003 23:48									#59
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Has anyone thought about organizing citizen militias? If someone are bent on destroying my shop, you can sure bet I will take all necessary means to defend my property.

	20-06-2003 00:51									#60
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Why are we anti-gm? Is it because we let you test this food, before we put it to our mouths. It's called being cautious, I believe.

Do you believe the gm people load up the veggies with cyanide before shipping them? We eat that stuff here and I don't see anyone keeling over or growng extra arms.