21-06-2003 10:58									#31
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How could you have not known it was not a lie or exaggerated at least? I dont know any details about the incident, but I would have guessed the story was somewhat bloated even before I read your post (which is pretty much my first time hearing the details)

	21-06-2003 13:44									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: Dissident, the boat for Cuba sails in a half hour. sloww, i never thought i'd see you stoop as low as the worst of the talk show hacks out here.

What do you mean? He had made similar statements about sending people with dissenting politcal views to Camp X-Ray at least 6 times. Very probably more.

	21-06-2003 14:57									#33
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Yes, Wag the Dog. Again who's ultimately to blame here? A lazy press corps that repeats half-told rumors from any source without checking the facts. Whether its 130,000 Iraqi artifacts or Pvt. Lynch's firefight, getting the scoop first seems to be the highest priority. Truth runs a distant second.

The media reported the Centcom general's comments about the firefight. They didn't make up those comments.

When the story broke, the media did not have access to the hospital. When they were able to get there, they reported the other side of the story.

The fault lies with the government.

	21-06-2003 15:35									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The media reported the Centcom general's comments about the firefight. They didn't make up those comments. When the story broke, the media did not have access to the hospital. When they were able to get there, they reported the other side of the story. The fault lies with the government.

Or the General Staff.

It would be very interesting to find out, who gave the orders to tell the lie.
Was it Donald Rumsfeld, was it someone even higher within the government,
or was it just one member of the PR Department who thought it would a wise idea to create a new american hero (and neglecting the fact that the truth could eventually be discovered )

	22-06-2003 07:48									#35
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quote: What do you mean? He had made similar statements about sending people with dissenting politcal views to Camp X-Ray at least 6 times. Very probably more.

i haven't seen them yet.

oh well.

	14-07-2003 02:22									#36
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Okay I want to create another thread, but I can't.

This doesn't deal with Lynch directly, but the other POW's. Apparantly they decided to surrender whan all 3 of their M-16 A2's jammed. WTF!

I wanted to ask MTG why the new M-16's are jamming? Didn't they fix the problem they had in Vietnam? Why is the U.S. using such crappy weapons?

if someone else wants to make a thread about the lack of quality of the M-16 feel free to.

	14-07-2003 02:35									#37
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Since they're from the same unit, and failure rates of the M16A2 and M4A1 are low, my first reaction is they had slack training on desert maintenance, slack inspections, and/or some kind of FNG or sad sack armorer.

Any piece can jam if you don't properly maintain it, especially in desert conditions - and apparently smallarms maintenance would seem to have been too low on their priority list.*

* = That is because I haven't heard any reports that their rifles were damaged by RPG blast or other effects.

	14-07-2003 02:37									#38
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Didn't all the Iraqi doctors say none of the heroic stuff really happened?

Anyways ,

Now that there is some semi-serious doubt on the whole story (instead of a few paragraphs in the Guardian) apparently, I hope Disney went ahead and bought the movie rights so they can find out whoever started it and sue them.

quote: Don't blame me, I voted Gore

Blame me, I voted Nader j/k

	14-07-2003 02:38									#39
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yeah, but you can't constantly be cleaning your weapons. And they are a maintenance unit, so I would suspect they are a little more lax on cleaning their weapons.

But still. You would think we would have a weapon that can handle harsh environments.

I think the U.S. should use AK-47's

	14-07-2003 03:07									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander My thoughts exactly at the time. She didn't exactly inspire me with confidence in her Iraqi slaying capabilities. She looked like someone who gets by with a little help from her friends.

It doesn't take much to form a sight picture, track the target, and gently squeeze of a three round burst. I've seen a lot of squiddies down by 32nd St. Naval Station in San Diego, and a lot of Army company clerk types (male) who looked no more nor less impressive than Lynch, or any other average civvie.

	14-07-2003 03:13									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident yeah, but you can't constantly be cleaning your weapons.

You sure as **** can - it's sort of a religious mantra.

quote: And they are a maintenance unit, so I would suspect they are a little more lax on cleaning their weapons.

I was trying to be nice, in memory of the dead, and not call them what I usually call those types of units, but it should be Army-wide practice to insist on competence in armorers and in maintaining basic combat proficiency in all units.

quote: But still. You would think we would have a weapon that can handle harsh environments.

Sandstorms are pretty harsh, and Kalashnikov's require periodic maintenance, too. The older ones (-47, -74 series) traded off firepower and accuracy for their ability to be operated under a poor maintenance regime. The -100+ series are more "modern" designs that are pretty cool, but much more maintenance intensive.

quote: I think the U.S. should use AK-47's

Too heavy, for the accuracy and hitting power. M14's rock, though.

	14-07-2003 03:38									#42
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Audie Murphy probably didn't look like a guy who'd wind up winning a bucketful of medals, either. There's no physiological 'type' for heroism, AFAIK. Under other circumstances, like better training & preparation, for instance, Lynch might well have proved to be the soldier she was originally said to be. There's no way to tell.

And M-14s rock, all right. The first one I ever fired damn near took my shoulder off.

	14-07-2003 04:38									#43
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never fired either one.

but I like M-14's better than m-16's in the fallout computer games though

	14-07-2003 05:13									#44
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem Under other circumstances, like better training & preparation, for instance, Lynch might well have proved to be the soldier she was originally said to be. There's no way to tell.

And if my Aunty had balls she MIGHT be my uncle.

Achillies wasn't even the soldier Lynch was said to be!!!

	14-07-2003 05:22									#45
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So you guys think GW Bush thought up this lie and fed it to us?
Repeating a falsehood doesn't make the messenger a liar unless they know it to be false.

	14-07-2003 05:45									#46
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quote: Achillies wasn't even the soldier Lynch was said to be!!!

Yeah, the original story was just a little hyped, wasn't it?

	14-07-2003 06:06									#47
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem Audie Murphy probably didn't look like a guy who'd wind up winning a bucketful of medals, either. There's no physiological 'type' for heroism, AFAIK. Under other circumstances, like better training & preparation, for instance, Lynch might well have proved to be the soldier she was originally said to be. There's no way to tell. And M-14s rock, all right. The first one I ever fired damn near took my shoulder off.

While I generally agree that a look at someone alone is no basis for a sure categorization of their potential for military heroism, in this case between the unrealistic tales of her exploits and the apparant dumb innocence in her face in her file photo, I smelled a rat. Solid soldiers tend to have been solid as civilians as well, ie they tend to have been mature and used to taking on responsibility. Young soldiers can and do learn this, but it can take a while. It appears that Lynch's opportunity for heroism came after her crippling injuries and not before. I have plenty of respect for her, just not the sort of uber respect and wonderment that the tales of her combat exploits were intended to engender.

Regarding the M-14, that .308 can be a real eye-opener to someone used to firing the .223 used in the M-16. One of my uncles described firing the .30 '06 caliber Springfield in training during WW2 thusly:

"You fired off a magazine of rounds, reloaded and crawled back up to the firing line."

	14-07-2003 16:45									#48
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat You sure as **** can - it's sort of a religious mantra.

Amen to that. Maintaining your weapon comes ahead of food.

It sounds to me like they were using too much oil. Oil and the fine particles of desert sand quickly turn into a cement-like substance.

	16-07-2003 12:56									#49
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For anyone who is interested, here's what happenned according to CNN. It turns out the Iraqis aren't bad guys after all- well at least not the regular military. The article does mention the paramilitaries might have beat the pow's, but the regular military was nice enough to bring the severely wounded to the hospital. Including Lori Piestawa. She died shortly after arriving at the hospital.

It also mentions how several rifles were jammed with sand from the desert.

from cnn:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- New details are emerging of the battle that led to the Iraqi capture of Pfc. Jessica Lynch and her comrades.

Mechanics from the 507th Maintenance Company -- rather than trained front line soldiers -- fought a fierce 90-minute firefight against Iraqi paramilitary and regular forces after getting lost in the Iraqi desert.

They tell of coming under fire from soldiers on rooftops near Nasiriya as their vehicles were hit by rocket-propelled grenades and some weapons were clogged with sand.

"It was Mogadishu," said one military source familiar with the reports from survivors, referring to a 1993 incident in the Somali capital when 18 U.S. Army Rangers were killed by a Somali mob while attempting to rescue comrades from two downed helicopters.

Lynch and 32 other soldiers got lost when their 18 vehicles lost touch with the 3rd Infantry Division's convoy of 8,000 in the drive from Kuwait to Baghdad, missing a crucial left turn south of Nasiriya, Defense Department sources told CNN.

As they realized their mistake and tried to find a safe route back to their comrades they came under intense Iraqi fire.

Master Sgt. Robert Dowdy, the senior enlisted soldier with the group, took charge, urging the young soldiers to stay together, keep moving and fight.

Sources said that at some point the vehicle in which Lynch was riding broke down, and she and others got into a soft-top Humvee.

Lynch's friend, Pfc. Lori Piestewa was driving. Dowdy was in the front passenger seat.

It is believed Lynch was in the middle seat in the rear, between two other soldiers when a rocket-propelled grenade hit the Humvee, and Piestewa lost control, violently crashing into the back of another vehicle.

Dowdy was killed instantly and sources now say that Iraqi doctors have told them Piestewa, suffering serious injuries, was taken to the same hospital as Lynch but died shortly after her arrival there.

In debriefing sessions, soldiers involved in the battle said Lynch did not appear to have suffered gunshot or stab wounds, as was initially reported, and that her injuries were sustained in the crash.

Information from those sessions also indicates that at various points in the firefight all the soldiers tried to fight back, but several rifles, including Lynch's, were jammed by sand.


Lori Piestewa at Fort Bliss, Texas, on February 17 -- deployment day.
During the battle, Iraqi paramilitary forces as well as some regular forces fired weapons from rooftops and buildings and used debris, trash and vehicles to block the road and prevent the 507th from escaping.

One survivor reported that as the shooting ended, the regular forces chased away the paramilitaries, made up of local tribesmen. That soldier said he felt the tribesman might have severely beaten the U.S. soldiers if it were not for the regular Iraqi forces.

One U.S. soldier killed about six Iraqis firing in a mortar pit, sources told CNN.

The 507th normally provided maintenance for Patriot missile batteries, but on March 23 -- the day of the battle -- they had been rendering assistance to other vehicles.

The battle left 11 U.S. soldiers dead and another five, including Lynch, were captured.

Sources also said the coalition is continuing with a war crimes investigation to see if Lynch or the other POWs were abused, and if any U.S. soldiers were killed while trying to surrender.

Although some details remain unclear, it is certain that the tragedy began with the company heading in the wrong direction.

Sources emphasize it is not clear why that wrong turn was made on March 23 and why the unit did not proceed with the rest of the convoy.

In the confusion of battle, such mistakes can occur, one very knowledgeable source emphasized, adding that the unit had already been without sleep for about 60 hours.

They were meant to turn left before reaching Nasiriya and drive around the city but instead the 507th continued driving toward the city and the Iraqi forces.

The convoy then made a series of turns, trying to go back the way it came, but instead of finding a safe route came across the Iraqi troops.

this article shows it was Patrick Miller who was the real hero. He recieved a silver star and a purple heart. He may have killed up to 9 Iraqis. And he said the papers in his helmets were prices for water pumps and not radio frequency codes.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast...tack/index.html