20-06-2003 06:05									#1
	The Apolyton Science Fiction Discussion Group: August Nominations Increase Your PM Length

Since Stefu won last time, he gets to choose the theme for August's book. He chose:

Alternate History.

No debates as to whether it is sci-fi or not... it is marketed as sci-fi, it is sold as sci-fi, and bookstores and libraries all across the land shelve it as sci-fi.

For a list of Alternate Histories, go to www.uchronia.net for a very comprehensive list.

Remember the rules!

1. You have to have read the book you are nominating.
2. Please nominate only 1 book, as to allow others' selections to be listed.
3. The books must be science fiction and must be properly "themed" (see rule 4).
4. The person who nominated the winning book gets to pick the "theme" of the next month's nominations.
5. The book must be self-contained, that is that the story must come to a satisfactory conclusion at the end of the book even if there are sequels.

This month I nominate Kingsley Amis' The Alteration.

"The year is 1976 and we are alive in an all-Catholic world. The Reformation never took place because Martin Luther made a deal with Rome and became Pope Martin I. The "alteration" proposed to Hubert Anvil, brilliant 10-year-old boy soprano, is that most feared by all males. Pope John XXIV wishes Hubert to preserve the purity of his voice to glorify the Church on a permanent basis; Hubert wishes to share his talent but he has some disquieting thoughts about Pope John's proposal."

This one might be a hard one to find here in the states, though most libraries should have a copy.

Last edited by JohnT on 20-06-2003 at 17:54

	20-06-2003 06:06									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Please don't nominate Keith Roberts' Pavane! God what a slow and languid book.

	20-06-2003 06:09									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Everyone's going to nominate a Harry Turtledove book.


So I'll go first!

Ruled Britannia
Harry Turtledove

Bestseller Turtledove (American Empire, etc.) buckles a handsome Elizabethan swash with his latest fascinating what if: suppose the Spanish Armada had beaten the Virgin Queen's little navy and reimposed on England the fanatic Roman Catholicism of Bloody Mary Tudor and her ruthless husband, Philip II of Spain. For almost a decade, the English have chafed under Philip's daughter Isabella and her Austrian consort, as well as the Inquisition, enforced by arrogant dons, their hired-gun Irish gallowglasses (rumored to be cannibals) and English Catholic sympathizers. Good Queen Bess languishes in the Tower of London while her supporters plot rebellion-to be sparked by no less than a patriotic new play by Will Shakespeare, Turtledove's lovingly drawn hero, who's drawn willy-nilly into the conspiracy by Elizabeth's former minister, Lord Burghley. The author revels in complex turns of language and spouts brilliant adaptations of the real Shakespeare's immortal lines. Superbly realized historical figures include the "darkly handsome," doomed Kit Marlowe and the Machiavellian Robert Cecil. Equally engaging are such lesser characters as the "cunning woman" Cicely Sellis, who "thinks of England." Turtledove has woven an intricate and thoroughly engrossing portrait of an era, a theatrical tradition, a heroic band of English brothers and their sneering overlords. O, brave alternative world that has such people in't!
Copyright 2002 Reed Business Information, Inc.

	20-06-2003 06:10									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

You have been chafing at the bit to nominate that book, haven't you?

Is it out in paperback yet, or are you expecting us to shell out $20+ each?

	20-06-2003 06:14									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Jeebus, go to a library

	20-06-2003 06:28									#6
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Just want to duck in real quick, I think some of you might like this site.

http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/elfwood.html

	20-06-2003 06:35									#7
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I prefer the Encyclopedia of Arda

	20-06-2003 07:34									#8
	Tired of ads?

Added rule 5.

	20-06-2003 07:41									#9
	Put an end to popups!

Uhm...

Is there any chance at all of Good Omens, American Gods, or Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency qualifying?

	20-06-2003 07:56									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Doubtful, St. Leo. If others have read those books and want to chime in for/against, please do.

Here are some links to lists of AH novels:

http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/althist/
http://www.felixent.force9.co.uk/books5.html
http://www.uchronia.net/

The Uchronia site looks pretty damned comprehensive. 2,300 titles!

	20-06-2003 07:59									#11
	Tired of ads?

For Turtledove, I liked The Two Georges better.

	20-06-2003 08:02									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Dv8ed: Is that a nomination?

St. Leo: If your books are listed on the uchronia.net site, you can nominate one of them.

	20-06-2003 13:36									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'll throw in Kim Stanley Robinson's "Years of Rice and Salt".

St. Leo, no, they don't qualify.

	20-06-2003 17:55									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

Bumpity

	20-06-2003 22:29									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

I second Years of Rice and Salt because I've just bought it and am going to read it soon.

	20-06-2003 23:32									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Robert Harris' Fatherland

"The year is 1964. The setting is Berlin. JFK's father, Joe Kennedy, is president. Edward VIII is king, Wallis his queen. Adolf Hitler is about to celebrate his 75th birthday. In this thriller with a twist, the stalemate which ended World War II has evolved into a cold war, not between the Soviet Union and the United States, but between the Third Reich and America. Police investigator Xavier March handles a case involving the death of a prominent Nazi, an apparent suicide. The trail leads to other suicides, accidental deaths, a numbered vault in Zurich, and a beautiful American reporter. March discovers the pattern behind the deaths and locates incriminating papers exposing the Holocaust, which, because Germany didn't lose the war, has been kept secret for 20 years. Harris, author of the nonfiction title Selling Hitler ( LJ 5/15/86), is clearly well versed in the operations and machinations of the Nazi regime. He uses this knowledge to create a realistic and frightening world in which we all could be living."

	21-06-2003 02:16									#17
	Got spare money?

Do any of the books nom'ed yet count as Science fiction? Will the winner be able to nominate murder mysteries next?

	21-06-2003 02:22									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Alternative History IS sci-fi, che . So stop whining

As JohnT said:

quote: No debates as to whether it is sci-fi or not... it is marketed as sci-fi, it is sold as sci-fi, and bookstores and libraries all across the land shelve it as sci-fi.

	21-06-2003 02:25									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Do any of the books nom'ed yet count as Science fiction? Will the winner be able to nominate murder mysteries next?

We've had this debate before, which is why I added this, just the third sentence in the OP:

quote: No debates as to whether it is sci-fi or not... it is marketed as sci-fi, it is sold as sci-fi, and bookstores and libraries all across the land shelve it as sci-fi.

	21-06-2003 04:30									#20
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Howzabout The Man in the High Castle by Philip K. Dick?

"It's America in 1962--where slavery is legal and the few surviving Jews hide anxiously under assumed names. All because some twenty years earlier America lost a war--and is now occupied jointly by Nazi Germany and Japan. This harrowing, Hugo Award-winning novel set in a parallel universe is the work that established **** as a legendary science fiction author."

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books

	21-06-2003 04:38									#21
	Support Apolyton

Does "The Postman" by David Brin count? I don't know if one can discuss much about it, but I liked reading it so...

	21-06-2003 04:39									#22
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Okay, I'm not sure if this counts as AltHist, but if it does, I nominate "To Say Nothing of the Dog" by Connie Willis.

Wraith
So many books, so little: Time, Money, Shelf space (check list)

	21-06-2003 04:43									#23
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Howzabout The Man in the High Castle by Philip K. ****?

My second choice .

quote: Does "The Postman" by David Brin count?

It is up to JohnT... but I see the Postman as more of a future western story (like the show 'Firefly'), myself.

	21-06-2003 04:49									#24
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: It is up to JohnT

Ok, I'll have to wait. If it isn't accepted, there's of course always "2001: A Space Oddysey". Since a few years that can count as "alternative history" as well. Which reminds me instantly of "1984" too. Those are definitely two books you can discuss about!

	21-06-2003 05:52									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Alternate history deals with deviations in historical events from our world - a "what if", if you will.

... what if the Norman Invasion failed?

... what if Alexander the Great died when he was 20?

... what if the Byzantine Empire was able to successfully defend itself against the Moslems?

1984, 2001: A Space Oddessy, and The Postman are most emphatically not Alternate Histories as they were written as extrapolations of the future by their authors.

If it is listed in the Uchronia site as an AH, I'll automatically accept it. If not, then I'll probably won't.

	21-06-2003 05:56									#26
	Get a bigger avatar today!

For example, the list so far includes:

"The Alteration", a novel set in a world in which the Protestant Reformation failed.

"Ruled Britannia", a novel set in a world where the Spanish Armada successfully invaded England.

"The Man in the High Castle", set in a world where the Axis won WW2.

"The Years of Rice and Salt", set in a world where Europe collapsed due to plague and Islamic and Buddhist societies rose to unify the globe.

See?

	21-06-2003 05:57									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Hey, you forgot mine

"Fatherland" is set in a world where Germany won in WW2 (kinda like 'The Man in the High Castle' but different ).

	21-06-2003 05:58									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

"To Say nothing of the Dog" is also not a AH.

	21-06-2003 05:59									#29
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Sorry, Imran. "Fatherland" is also an AH.

Somebody needs to nominate Newt Gingrich's "1945".

	21-06-2003 06:00									#30
	Increase Your PM Length

I don't think any of us has ever read it .