20-06-2003 09:16									#1
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It has occurred to me that with the unfortunate departure of GF, I must now assume the duties of the COW. With that in mind I need to put some questions to all present.
1) How many units are going to be involved?
My preference is at least 20.(2 groups of 10). I currently seems that 9 are planned. This is simply insuffientient. Delay is worth it for the troops.
2) Exactly where are the forces to attack. I saw an interesting plan for He earlier. I would like to also have a chat with the commander of ND forces so I can have knowledge of their plans. We MUST do this together to destroy RP once and for all.
3) What result is our desire. Mine is nothing short of the defeat of the evil RP
Aggie(COW)

Last edited by Aggie on 22-08-2003 at 00:31

	20-06-2003 10:10									#2
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Issues:

If the war is delayed, RP will get suspicious that we refuse to trade Chivalry to them.
Option 1. Do nothing, and face an enemy that is expecting an attack, and could negotiate some allies. Lose the element of surprise.
Option 2. Sell Chivalry to RP for some much needed cash, but then face an enemy who can build knights and borrow money from Lego to rush build them.
Option 3. Immediately stop researching Chivalry. Generate some cash and sell to allies just before the war starts.

ND have requested a delay in the war to build more units. We could do the same, however we still run into the problem of what to do with Chivalry when we get it.


Who do we sell Chivalry to:
Lego is OK as we have a no trade clause for 20 turns.
ND are our allies.
We must sell to GS but we do not have a no-trade clause.
Option 1. Sell to RP ourselves and live with the consequences
Option 2. Negotiate a no-trade clause with GS ASAP


Current war plans
GoW to attack down the east coast with some ND Ansar support
ND will attack with us, as well as crash through the jungle and tackle RP head on. ND are to also attempt a naval landing to destroy RP iron.
GoW is attacking new/weak cities
ND will be attacking well defended/fortified cities.
GoW to use 2 galleys to block any east coast naval attack from RP
ND to use 2 galleys to block any west coast naval attack from RP

Concerns:
Sounds like ND does not have enough troops and want to delay the invasion
RP have a galley with 2 horsemen circling GS, that could pass our galley blockade
** GS spent their entire GA building military. They could quite happily get involved and invade anywhere along the east coast ** The fact they wanted our map after so many turns of refusing any type of trade increases my concerns over this.
Option 1. NAP with GS, free wines for a no unit landing on Bob agreement.
Option 2. Use them as allies to help defeat RP (but risk them getting a presence on our continent)


Issues not yet discussed:

What to do with our GA-
Military 100% ? or use it to build much needed infrastructure.
My vote is infrastructure with allowances to build replacement riders when needed.

After RP, how do we keep GS off Bob ?
We cannot colonise the entire continent quickly without compromising our core population.
Option 1. Get everyone's focus on the greater prize of attacking Lego ? A grand 3-way alliance ?
Option 2. Go Rex, and drain our population
Option 3. Allow GS on our continent...perhaps sneak a city on theirs ?

What to do with any Great Leaders ?
Wonders (Which Ones) ? or Armies ?

What do we study during the war
We need cash for rushing and upgrading, but we also have a prebuild for Leonardo's Workshop. Do we study Invention ourselves ?




More issues to come .......

	20-06-2003 18:35									#3
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quote: Option 1. Sell to RP ourselves and live with the consequences Option 2. Negotiate a no-trade clause with GS ASAP

Unorthodox is negotiating one with GS with a response expected today. If we can't get one, then we will have to stick with option #1.

quote: Option 1. NAP with GS, free wines for a no unit landing on Bob agreement. Option 2. Use them as allies to help defeat RP (but risk them getting a presence on our continent)

Option #1 seems the most favourable to me, and I think it is one of the things Unortho has been working towards.

quote: What to do with our GA- Military 100% ? or use it to build much needed infrastructure. My vote is infrastructure with allowances to build replacement riders when needed.

Much of this is up to the city kings, however, I would like to see us balence military and civil concerns by producing military at the beginning, obtaining at least 20 riders and adequate city defenders, then we switch to builder mode.

quote: What to do with any Great Leaders ? Wonders (Which Ones) ? or Armies ?

Definatly not the ones we have agreements not to build
I think the Forbidden palace should be our first rush. Then we should go for an army if we get another one.

quote: What do we study during the war We need cash for rushing and upgrading, but we also have a prebuild for Leonardo's Workshop. Do we study Invention ourselves ?

Once we get chivalry, we should go to 100% cash. Then once we trade for engineering, we should start researching invention ourselves, at a pace that is optimal for the production of Leo's workshop.

quote: After RP, how do we keep GS off Bob ? We cannot colonise the entire continent quickly without compromising our core population. Option 1. Get everyone's focus on the greater prize of attacking Lego ? A grand 3-way alliance ? Option 2. Go Rex, and drain our population Option 3. Allow GS on our continent...perhaps sneak a city on theirs ?

I have a plan with ND in the works that is tied into our receiving 5 cities from them after the war. See latest ND chatlog for details.
I would like to use these cities to rex the remaining of our land.

Keep in mind that these our my personal opinions and are not currently official policy of the Empire.

Next post I am going to post the strategy that has been discussed with ND and looks like we are going to attack in 110bc.

PS - If ND waited, they would get only 3 more units... I'm not sure why they wanted to wait another 5 turns.

	20-06-2003 18:48									#4
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Here is the initial plan for our Riders to attack.

Our first target is Bilbao, which we will attack without ND help. It is likely to be lightly defended.

270bc: Barracks rushed in Skulgaria
250bc: We finish chivalry.
230bc: Upgrade all 9 horsemen to Riders in Skulgaria.
210bc: Move stack S-S-S-S.
190bc: Move SE-SE-S.
170bc: Move S-S.
150bc: Move S-SE-SE
130bc: Move SE-SE OR SE-E-E <-- need to consult ND on this one, if they see us there by us moving SE-SE they might divert troops away from ND.
110bc: ATTACK!!!!!!!!
90bc: ND attacks (their turn after our attack. We need to attack first so our MPP with RP is invalid).

	20-06-2003 19:08									#5
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We could still delay the whole plan a few rounds like ND wants. Just switch science to to 0% for 2-3 rounds.

IIRC, RP also have early warning scouts located up the east coast. ND needs to confirm this. This means they will spot us and move troops into Bilbao.

ND did mention about giving us a ROP. This will mean one of us building an embassy.. 35g for us. If we can use ND roads and hide our troops all the way to Mavdad, we may avoid RP lookouts.

Finally, I see no problem with both of us declaring war at the same time at 110bc. Sure they do it before us, but it will be the same year, and we can do a joint announcement.

	20-06-2003 19:19									#6
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quote: We could still delay the whole plan a few rounds like ND wants. Just switch science to to 0% for 2-3 rounds.

We don't need to do this since we will have enough gold to upgrade all the horsemen from trading (only about 200 more gold needed) and one turn of 100% tax.

Edit: also, if you read the chat, they are just as happy to continue as planned.

quote: IIRC, RP also have early warning scouts located up the east coast. ND needs to confirm this. This means they will spot us and move troops into Bilbao.

Bilbao is quite isolated by the terrain. Slowmovers take 4 turns from Toledo (closest city) and fastmovers take 3 turns.

quote: ND did mention about giving us a ROP. This will mean one of us building an embassy.. 35g for us. If we can use ND roads and hide our troops all the way to Mavdad, we may avoid RP lookouts.

If you find a faster way than the overland route that goes through ND, then please speak up and write it down. We make 44 gold/turn when not researching so if we can delay a turn we can net 11 more gold.

quote: Finally, I see no problem with both of us declaring war at the same time at 110bc. Sure they do it before us, but it will be the same year, and we can do a joint announcement.

The crux of staggared declarations is that the order is GoW-RP-ND. Roleplay see we are about to attack in 130bc and maybe declares war. They send troops to the east to help out, and then ND swipes in and takes a less prepared west. This won't happen on a huge scale, but might be as many as 5 units for a couple turns.

	20-06-2003 21:08									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

After very careful consideration, I suggest we give Nd the exta time and attack around 10bc or 10AD. With this delay and wise production we can launch and attack of 14 riders on toledo. Yes toledo. Why not Bilboa. Very simply put Bilboa is gone once we get toledo, it is doomed. However if we attack bilboa units can be built and fortified at Toledo. Also observe no wall at toledo. If we attack elsewhere we will certainly find it fortified. Alternatively we can attack with 10 at Toledo and 4 at bilboa. This requires that we have enough gold to upgrade 13 units(one rider can be built on turn 7). I suggest we come up with some kind of story to cover the delay in selling chivilary. Something like this "several kings have put their cities on strike in protest of GF overthrow". Panzer can say that he can't change their orders because they too will leave. Thus we are in "anarchy". No science over 4 turns gives us enough for 2 more riders. Lets figure creative ways for the rest.
Aggie

	20-06-2003 21:18									#8
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Aggie: I don't believe Roleplay will go for it. Also, it looks less and less likely that GS will agree to a cheap no trade clause.

We really need a poll to figure out if we delay and sell RP chivalry or go now and try to get a NTA from GS. I'll post it.

	21-06-2003 03:54									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

ND have requested we dont sell Chiv to RP.

We must make this an allied decision.

	21-06-2003 06:33									#10
	Got spare money?

Chat with ND tommorrow (saturday) at 1500 GMT, 11:00 EST, and 10:00 CST.

I want to get them and Aggie together to discuss our plans for war, and also discuss delaying our attack.

	21-06-2003 09:36									#11
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I have done some calculating and estimating and here comes some info.
From Skulgaria(base of operation "Lower the Curtain"(LTC). It is 6 turns to attack Toledo and 4 turns to attack Bilboa(using 2 galleys to carry 4 units).
Right now we can set out all forces in 170 and declare war in 50BC and attack toledo in 30 BC. We can attack bilboa in 50 BC. We have 7 more turns before we set out that is an extra 210 gold + 200 from GS could give us enough to upgrade all forces. I also request that cape cod produce something just to gather shield unitil we get chivilary, then build rider. The arrival of this rider at skulgaria in 150 +/- will trigger the attack. Also here an idea I would do angaibst the AI, but fear doing against humans. We could deposit 2pike and 1 MI in the mountains north of bilboa on the coast. These would then be able to fortify in toledo fairly soon after we attack, thus freeing up units to press S and or W. I am afraid that RP will see this and get tipped off that we intend to attack. As I have said before I am inexperienced with interhuman wars so this could be an example of that. One item is this. Due to the shorter ship time span to atatck we could launch 10 units from skulgaria up to 2 turns before the rest are ready and then send the other 4 by boat later. This could move the war up to 90BC, though I have not timed this move. Just some thoughts.
Aggie

	21-06-2003 23:18									#12
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Here is a turn by turn plan for the war.
270: 11th horse produced
Science set to 0, gets us and 120+ gold
210: Science to required to get chivilary
190: 12th and LAST horse produced at Tralfalgar,Science to 0
170: 1st Rider Produced at Camp Concord
150: 2nd rider produced at Camp Cod, we now have a 14 force assembled
130: Upgrade turn we currently have 517, we will get about 250 gold from no science. after deductions for units/lossed etc we have about 760. We need about 200 more to upgrade 12 riders(960). This is the reason I decided to request we build rider in Camp Concord. It saves us 80.
110: Attack force Toledo(AFT) moves to 2e,1s of Thordoba
90: AFT to 2n,1E of Mavdad, Attack Force Bilbao(AFB) to 2s of Shantung
70: ATF to 2ne of Mavdad; ATB loads onto ships 5 sof Shantung
50: ATF to 2n,1e of Toledo; ATB lands 2n of Bilbao
30: DECLARE WAR; AFT 1n,1ne of Toledo. ATB attacks
10: AFT attacks Toledo
This is still a plan that is under construction so please feel free to give suggestions. As you all know I am still trying to get the hang of fighting humans and not the AI.
Also as I mentioned above I am considering prepositioning 2 pikes and an MI to help with security in the conquered areas so we can keep adavancing.
I also am wondering if a staggered attack will work best. Ie. we attack and pull the RP defense e and then ND slams into their NW. This seems like a good tactic with people. Also I would wonder if perhaps we could have nd provide"scouting services so we are not detected until we make the push toward toledo.
I will be unable to make the chat tomorrow but please use this as a guide. I am sure ND will appreciate such planning. Nothing convinces people better than a plan that looks solid. Also they can look for holes in it. Also if anybody can figure a way to get an extra rider or horse(and money to upgrade), please holler.
Aggie

Last edited by Aggie on 21-06-2003 at 23:26

	22-06-2003 22:42									#13
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ok, from the chat:

Aggie, thats a very good plan.

ND says there are no Roleplay scouts in the Eastern Corridor.

	23-06-2003 01:50									#14
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I had thought about naming one Horseman Lord UnOrthOdOx and sending it south as a covert scout to attempt to avoid any RP units they may have stationed as early warning alarms.

	08-07-2003 06:57									#15
	Remove this text

Well... lets update a bit shall we??

Basically I am suggesting that we scrap Attack force Bilbao. This is done mainly because we are not assured victory with only 4 riders and 9 or 10 riders. I want to be assured at least one city to start off with. Therefore I suggest only one group of riders, all attacking Toledo. Our actual attack turn would be postponed to 10bc:



Note that Roleplay gets a good look at the stack of Riders in 50bc and 30bc. Of course, this would still happen if we go with having AFB, but AFB would be attacking bilbao at the time.

Additionally, if we get ND to delay a turn to 10 AD, they will divert (some, maybe alot, maybe very few) troops to the eastern sector to allow ND to come in to the walled cities easier.

	08-07-2003 07:05									#16
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quote: I had thought about naming one Horseman Lord UnOrthOdOx and sending it south as a covert scout to attempt to avoid any RP units they may have stationed as early warning alarms.

Horseman? Sure, Ill step back a bit for the empire. I could SURELY work that into the storyline. Could be quite fun.

	08-07-2003 07:12									#17
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too late

you're a rider



Also we have some info the galleys have been telling us.

	08-07-2003 07:15									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I disagree with eliminating ATB. There are 2 major reason and a 3rd practical reason.
1) If there is no AFB they will certainly concentrate at toledo, now I wouldn't mind the AFT avoids the horse by going further east and postponing. But note as written it demands an ROP and that is not acceptable since the second RP sees us and ND have rop they know what is up.
2) Without ATB we will then have to worry about a counterattack from 3 directions. I don't want an unfought force on my flank. I generally want to keep the enemy in front of me.
3) If 10 riders fail at Toldedo we are screwed anyway.
In short delay is acceptable but cancelling one thrust line isn't.
We will have sufficient gold to perhaps get another rider in time for the Toldeo attack if we delay.
Aggie

	08-07-2003 07:28									#19
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I was more worried about 4 riders failing at Bilbao. Then we will still fear a counterattack from 3 directions, but with less riders to defend. Also, what stops RP from just ignoring Bilbao and piling the defenders in Toledo? We are more likely to suceed with 4 more riders there.

If we do take Toledo, Bilbao is doomed anyways. I would also like to have more riders at Toledo because it is closer to their heartland and will be able to cut the road from Pamplona to Madrid more easily.

	08-07-2003 23:28									#20
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I posted elsewhere, but may as well here too.

We could ship the 3 MI and 1 pike on the galleys to still attack Bilbao AND keep the rider force intact.

	10-07-2003 11:56									#21
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Quick post while I remember ...

Dont forget Roleplay has a galley (or 2) circling GS.
These had units that they were going to use with Vox against GS.

I dont recall what was in them (I think Beta told us somewhere) but I think it was horsemen, swords or MI.

They may appear at the top of Vox pretty soon.
Make sure we have a few units in the north who can deal with them should they land.

Regs

	14-07-2003 13:58									#22
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Now, what if Toledo is stocked full of pikes and catapults? Will we send our Riders to impending doom and destruction? NO!!

The beauty of getting intelligence from Vox is that we can plan ahead on our course of action. Thus, what if Toledo is too heavily defended? We can still alter this plan slightly and deal our main blow on 10 BC, but this time on Bilbao following with an advance which can theaten multiple objectives.

Remember, rule #1 of warfare is to keep your opponent guessing on when and where you're going to strike. If we can manage to successfuly maneouver our stack into a position which it can threaten two different objectives.

The following attack plan is based in the worst-case scenario that Toledo is defended to the teeth. This is of course also assuming that RP won't move units into the open to block our paths (quite likely if they have any spec of intelligence).

	14-07-2003 15:54									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

Agree with everything above from MZ.

Note another option below

	21-08-2003 07:29									#24
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I think this can be de-topped as we seem to have transferred discussion to the turn threads, right?