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Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Sikander
Maybe we can force people to be peaceful!
Seriously, how can you eliminate violence? It's a natural condition, something that is "invented" anew every generation regardless of the values of the society these children are born into.
Let's suppose that a society was determined to elimnate violence. To this end they endlessly repeat that violence is bad to their children, and intervene at school whenever a violent incident occurs by sending the evildoers to counciling. Would this work? Or would abused and neglected children still have a tendency to become more violent than others, their parents perhaps not around to scold them for hitting their brother, or perhaps serving as violent role models. These kids get to school and smack someone, for which they get a lot of attention, negative from their classmates and teachers perhaps, and positive from the counselors. There is a lot of self-perpetuation material here, and we've seen this cycle for a very long time. Tough guy is identified as violent by his peers and teachers / police etc., and accepts the role because it feels right (he feels himself to be bad). He is sent to counseling, but that slow work to become like everyone else 10 years behind schedule can't effectively compete with the excitement of being the bad boy, especially once the bad girls get ahold of him.
You seem to think that we can simply disincentivize violence away, but that idea has had a long history of incomplete success at best to abject failure at worst. It is completely incapable of dealing with various manias and mob violence, social pathologies and psychiatric conditions. We may be able to manage violence, but we are in no position to eliminate it in the least. Just this week I heard people chanting "No Justice, No Peace!" |
I clarified that for Og already. I don't claim to be able to eliminate psychopathical violence only violence resulting from the competition for resources.
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ravagon
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Australia
Sep 1999
time: 13:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Violence against citizens is not exclusive to communist govts.
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Very true, but if you're referring to "Western" Governments in particular, they tend to use tear/CS gas and rubber bullets - maybe inflicting a fatality or two in the most extreme cases. Those communist crackdowns were completely off the scale. Dozens/hundreds killed IIRC.
quote:
I would have to say that those cases are extreme and probably not the best move although I'm sure the govts thought them to be rational moves. |
I'm not so sure that Communist Governments implementing such moves as 'rational' supports your theories quite frankly...
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:29
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More police than what? Than we have now in the US, or than some of your favorite run of the mill commie dictatorships have?
Should the national mantra be "one good turn-in deserves another?" Pit the citizens against each other, maybe? Have them so enthralled with the prospect of picking up a few more crumbs from the party bigwigs that it becomes a national passtime?
Again, I ask: What's wrong with just letting people be who they are? What are you so afraid of? Is reciept of whatever the party bosses determine to be your "fair share" of the nation's wealth worth your freedom of choice? Of speech? Of movement?
Are you truly so obsessed with equal economic outcomes (I think everybody would be happy with around 30k) that you're willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING else? Or, will you wake up one day and realize that you've sold your soul for a paltry 30k a year (or whatever your final figures turn out to be)?
What manner of victory is it to ensure some basic level of guaranteed wage if you must live each day wondering if a neighbor might say something to the local honcho and make your whole family disappear?
That's what you are advocating, because NOTHING in your plan as presented thus far varies markedly from uncle Joe Stalin's plan, save for the fact that you're calling for even more police (if I read your earlier post correctly).
You say that after all the enemies of the glorious revolution are crushed (ie - killed), there will be no need for war, but you base that assumption entirely on the fact that it's all (exclusively, entirely) about resources.
It's not, and you would be foolish to believe it.
Further, after all the external enemies of the state are eliminated, will you stand down the military? The police? Stop the random house-to-house checks to make sure that no one is amassing wealth that could be used one day, to exploit another?
Or will the state keep inventing new enemies (from within) to maintain its power over the sheep they rule over?
-=Vel=-
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24-06-2003 07:01
ACK!
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