24-06-2003 08:17									#481
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Veliciryx -

quote: Poverty: A problem in capitalist societies, true, and a plus for your side. There are 32 million folks technically living "in poverty" in the US.

Hmm...can we apply the US standard for poverty to all the communist countries? I'd bet over 90% of those populations are in "poverty".

Kid -

quote: Mental illness is caused by poverty. Poverty is caused by capitalism. That's pretty simple stuff. Psychologists tell us that. What is the problem with your logic. I guess you're just stubborn like GePap says.

Oh, "Psychologists" tell us this? That's kind of like the Inquisators telling us that mental illness is caused by sin. Both groups used to torture people to make them better... If what you say is true, then that means no impoverished people ever lived in a communist country. If we used the same standard used here, MOST of the people living in communist countries were and are impoverished. Btw, we have a massive welfare state here that creates anti-capitalistic incentives to remain on the public dole, i.e., "poverty". So you cannot point to the USA to support your argument...

	24-06-2003 08:18									#482
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The end of the nation state.

So....having come to power during the glorious revolution....ruling over hundreds of millions of pacified sheep, the benevolent party leadership will deny their own human nature....and simply abolish the government they created when they came to power.

And you believe this?

-=Vel=-

	24-06-2003 08:20									#483
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Lets look first at an implemenation. Suppose for a second a revolution happens.

Why a revolution?

WEll most likely cause is the oppressed right?

That means things are pretty bad right?

Say a major major depression hits. The markets are in tatters. Wealth evaporates right?

Hold it right there. One of the criteria earlier discussed was the need for a redistribution of welath and that it should be from a western society that had welth to reallocate.

Heck by the time things get bad enough to catlyze the revolution the scraps are already being picked over.

Ok beyond that, there is the whole Vel arguements that discuss the motivationof the individual for his own sake verses his motivation to advance the hive.

BUt lastly and most importantly there is the insatiable need for man to create a sense of immortality. He needs to understand that his life meant something. He needs to have individual accomplishments. He needs to be selfish in order to meet those needs. Another number another face does not meet his needs. Having offspring that are another cog in the apparatus doesn't meet those needs.

Communism does not give him the atmosphere that allows his needs to be met.

As soon as the revolution is over and the dust would clear man would begin again his quest for individual immortality.

	24-06-2003 08:20									#484
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Now that is not the nature of man. That is social conditioning that comes with capitalism.

Come on, you aren't dense enough to persist in this claim that the need for humans to feel better about themselves by lording it over others has only been around since the dawn of capitalism. For rebuttal, I suggest the entire body of history and literature since before the dawn of capitalism. Just about any of that will make my point.

	24-06-2003 08:22									#485
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx More police than what? Than we have now in the US, or than some of your favorite run of the mill commie dictatorships have? Should the national mantra be "one good turn-in deserves another?" Pit the citizens against each other, maybe? Have them so enthralled with the prospect of picking up a few more crumbs from the party bigwigs that it becomes a national passtime? Again, I ask: What's wrong with just letting people be who they are? What are you so afraid of? Is reciept of whatever the party bosses determine to be your "fair share" of the nation's wealth worth your freedom of choice? Of speech? Of movement? Are you truly so obsessed with equal economic outcomes (I think everybody would be happy with around 30k) that you're willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING else? Or, will you wake up one day and realize that you've sold your soul for a paltry 30k a year (or whatever your final figures turn out to be)? What manner of victory is it to ensure some basic level of guaranteed wage if you must live each day wondering if a neighbor might say something to the local honcho and make your whole family disappear? That's what you are advocating, because NOTHING in your plan as presented thus far varies markedly from uncle Joe Stalin's plan, save for the fact that you're calling for even more police (if I read your earlier post correctly). You say that after all the enemies of the glorious revolution are crushed (ie - killed), there will be no need for war, but you base that assumption entirely on the fact that it's all (exclusively, entirely) about resources. It's not, and you would be foolish to believe it. Further, after all the external enemies of the state are eliminated, will you stand down the military? The police? Stop the random house-to-house checks to make sure that no one is amassing wealth that could be used one day, to exploit another? Or will the state keep inventing new enemies (from within) to maintain its power over the sheep they rule over? -=Vel=-

Nice speech, but I don't picture it anything like that. You keep reminding me to look at it that way, but you better pack a lunch.

I'm not talking about a police state like that. For the most part I think that our political system should remain mostly as it is with a few necessary changes. I don't believe in McCarthy style witch hunts. You seem to think that it would be possible for someone to be a capitalist in the communist system, that the state will have to fear a Bill Gates rising up and some how being able to survive. I don't see having any of the same problems that other nations have had. Americans will have a very high standard of living and everyone will enjoy in it. There will be no incentive for people to cause trouble.

	24-06-2003 08:25									#486
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Kid -

quote: When a Western nation becomes communist we will see a difference.

Really? Cuba is in the west. But why do we have to wait for a western nation? Why didn't communism prevent this in the "east"? What's so special about the west?

	24-06-2003 08:27									#487
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Capitalism is a bigger failure than any other system in history in every single African nation.

As with so many other things, you don't know what you are talking about. Almost every state released from imperial bondage in Black Africa went with a more collectivist rule from the capital approach. Every one of those states experienced an immediate and chronic drop in economic productivity. None of these states btw were ever truly communist or capitalist, as none of them really had the minimum requirements for either. But most of the states in Africa went with a more communistic approach than capitalist approach, because that was what was fashionable politically, with communists calling stridently for an end to imperialism, as long as it wasn't Russian or Chinese imperialism of course.

	24-06-2003 08:27									#488
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Come on, you aren't dense enough to persist in this claim that the need for humans to feel better about themselves by lording it over others has only been around since the dawn of capitalism. For rebuttal, I suggest the entire body of history and literature since before the dawn of capitalism. Just about any of that will make my point.

Well I'll tell you what I told Vel. If you want to debate capitalism and feudalism go ahead, but you should start a new thread.

	24-06-2003 08:27									#489
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Come on, you aren't dense enough to persist in this claim that the need for humans to feel better about themselves by lording it over others has only been around since the dawn of capitalism. For rebuttal, I suggest the entire body of history and literature since before the dawn of capitalism. Just about any of that will make my point.

Well I'll tell you what I told Vel. If you want to debate capitalism and feudalism go ahead, but you should start a new thread.

	24-06-2003 08:31									#490
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Sikander -

quote: But most of the states in Africa went with a more communistic approach than capitalist approach, because that was what was fashionable politically, with communists calling stridently for an end to imperialism, as long as it wasn't Russian or Chinese imperialism of course.

	24-06-2003 08:32									#491
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander As with so many other things, you don't know what you are talking about. Almost every state released from imperial bondage in Black Africa went with a more collectivist rule from the capital approach. Every one of those states experienced an immediate and chronic drop in economic productivity. None of these states btw were ever truly communist or capitalist, as none of them really had the minimum requirements for either. But most of the states in Africa went with a more communistic approach than capitalist approach, because that was what was fashionable politically, with communists calling stridently for an end to imperialism, as long as it wasn't Russian or Chinese imperialism of course.

You could argue that any country was partially communist. Communism doesn't work when it is partially implemented. Now you can call them communist, but I won't agree with you. In fact I wont agree that any nation has ever been communist. You need to have a certain standard of living and a significant political heritage to make the move to a communist system. When the world is ready for communism most of the world will freely choose it without Imperialist nations to interfere.

	24-06-2003 08:34									#492
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No incentive?

Here's an incentive for you....the incentive I would have if I was living under your thumb.

1) I *do not* want your hand out. I don't want or need your charity. Keep it. I'm not one of your damned numbered masses, my name is Christopher David Hartpence. Remember it, cos if the revolution comes, I'll be nipping at your heels until you kill me. And I'll force your hand, too. I won't bow down to the party, and I won't play by your cozy hive rules. I will make my own future, control my own destiny, and live my life as *I* wish to, and the Party and the state that it creates can burn in a festering pit if they try to prevent me from being who I am.

2) I am a strong person. An individual. The state does not know my wishes and desires, which run beyond the meager pittance you would be handing out as my "fair share." My effort and ingenuity will determine my lot in life, not some party boss who barely knows me.

3) I am not alone. I'm not the only one who thinks this way, and under your enlightened regieme, I will find them. We will band together quietly, in secret places where your security forces and "CommieCams" aren't. We will plot against you to either flee to an area you don't control and create our own state, or (if you control everything) we will pick our ground carefully and fight like hellspawn for it.

4) You and yours will never be secure so long as even one of us lives, because each day we survive uncaught is another day we can wake the sheep from their slumber by showing them hope for a better life.

5) If you kill me, it won't stop me. I'll become a martyr for standing up against your oppression, and will become tenfold more dangerous to you.

6) My reason for taking up arms against you will have nothing to do with competition for resources. If I wanted your resources, I'd have been a good little lamb and taken what you handed down from on high, but my motivation is something else. It is the fire that burns in the soul that your regieme cannot extinquish (though it would dearly love to).

So....I'm ready when you are.....Comrade....

-=Vel=-

	24-06-2003 08:34									#493
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Well I'll tell you what I told Vel. If you want to debate capitalism and feudalism go ahead, but you should start a new thread.

No I don't want to debate it, especially with such a confused mind as yours. You believe envy to be a creation of a particular level of economic development, I believe it to be an inherent part of life amongst animals and man alike. There is a very good reason why the vast majority of people would side with my interpretation, namely because it is the correct one.

	24-06-2003 08:35									#494
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Kid - Really? Cuba is in the west. But why do we have to wait for a western nation? Why didn't communism prevent this in the "east"? What's so special about the west?

I was thinking more along the lines of US, Britain, France of Germany. Cuba could do very well however if it had a chance.

	24-06-2003 08:35									#495
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Heck capitalists make the same arguement. You can't say capitalism is to blame as true capitalism wasn't being implemented.

	24-06-2003 08:37									#496
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander No I don't want to debate it, especially with such a confused mind as yours. You believe envy to be a creation of a particular level of economic development, I believe it to be an inherent part of life amongst animals and man alike. There is a very good reason why the vast majority of people would side with my interpretation, namely because it is the correct one.

I'm not talking about utopia Sik. Of course people will always want to rule the world. They just wont be able to.

	24-06-2003 08:38									#497
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Vel,

How dare you espouse "Each according to their worth." and eschew "Each according to their need."

The storm troopers have their sights set now.

	24-06-2003 08:41									#498
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Vel,

Looks like I didn't get the "petering" I was hoping for.....



ACK!

	24-06-2003 08:41									#499
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Heck capitalists make the same arguement. You can't say capitalism is to blame as true capitalism wasn't being implemented.

Capitalism exists in so many places and so many forms that one would have to assume that at some point it has been implemented correctly. But I don't really see it that way. I think capitalism will work about as well as it does, no real improvement can be made to it, and eventually it won't work at all and we will choose communism.

	24-06-2003 08:42									#500
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I know Og....frightening, ain't it?

Seriously, I am TOTALLY for the social safety net....even stronger and more vibrant than we have today--one that includes universal health care and better wages for those who are disadvantaged SO LONG AS it comes hand in hand with retraining programs to get people OFF the dole.

And then, with that safety net in place, may the best man win.

-=Vel=-

	24-06-2003 08:42									#501
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You could argue that any country was partially communist. Communism doesn't work when it is partially implemented. Now you can call them communist, but I won't agree with you. In fact I wont agree that any nation has ever been communist. You need to have a certain standard of living and a significant political heritage to make the move to a communist system. When the world is ready for communism most of the world will freely choose it without Imperialist nations to interfere.

So there has never been a single instance of communism in the history of the world, and everything else is capitalism? Well, there can be no substantive argument about the relative merits then, as there is no evidence for either case with such broadly different data sets.

Your dogmatic attachment to a harebrained theory cooked up near the beginning of the industrial revolution when Europe was undergoing a series of political and economic crisis' is very much like the sort of "arguments" one might have with a disturbed preacher man on the street. At best you can agree to disagree, and walk away shaking your head while they threaten you with imaginary reckonings to come.

	24-06-2003 08:42									#502
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx 3) I am not alone. I'm not the only one who thinks this way, and under your enlightened regieme, I will find them. We will band together quietly, in secret places where your security forces and "CommieCams" aren't. We will plot against you to either flee to an area you don't control and create our own state, or (if you control everything) we will pick our ground carefully and fight like hellspawn for it. 4) You and yours will never be secure so long as even one of us lives, because each day we survive uncaught is another day we can wake the sheep from their slumber by showing them hope for a better life. 5) If you kill me, it won't stop me. I'll become a martyr for standing up against your oppression, and will become tenfold more dangerous to you. 6) My reason for taking up arms against you will have nothing to do with competition for resources. If I wanted your resources, I'd have been a good little lamb and taken what you handed down from on high, but my motivation is something else. It is the fire that burns in the soul that your regieme cannot extinquish (though it would dearly love to). So....I'm ready when you are.....Comrade.... -=Vel=-

Bud, remind me never to get on your bad side.

	24-06-2003 08:43									#503
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Back with a roar, Tuber....

-=Vel=-

	24-06-2003 08:43									#504
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Time for a new thread, too.

ACK!

	24-06-2003 08:44									#505
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx No incentive? Here's an incentive for you....the incentive I would have if I was living under your thumb. 1) I *do not* want your hand out. I don't want or need your charity. Keep it. I'm not one of your damned numbered masses, my name is Christopher David Hartpence. Remember it, cos if the revolution comes, I'll be nipping at your heels until you kill me. And I'll force your hand, too. I won't bow down to the party, and I won't play by your cozy hive rules. I will make my own future, control my own destiny, and live my life as *I* wish to, and the Party and the state that it creates can burn in a festering pit if they try to prevent me from being who I am. 2) I am a strong person. An individual. The state does not know my wishes and desires, which run beyond the meager pittance you would be handing out as my "fair share." My effort and ingenuity will determine my lot in life, not some party boss who barely knows me. 3) I am not alone. I'm not the only one who thinks this way, and under your enlightened regieme, I will find them. We will band together quietly, in secret places where your security forces and "CommieCams" aren't. We will plot against you to either flee to an area you don't control and create our own state, or (if you control everything) we will pick our ground carefully and fight like hellspawn for it. 4) You and yours will never be secure so long as even one of us lives, because each day we survive uncaught is another day we can wake the sheep from their slumber by showing them hope for a better life. 5) If you kill me, it won't stop me. I'll become a martyr for standing up against your oppression, and will become tenfold more dangerous to you. 6) My reason for taking up arms against you will have nothing to do with competition for resources. If I wanted your resources, I'd have been a good little lamb and taken what you handed down from on high, but my motivation is something else. It is the fire that burns in the soul that your regieme cannot extinquish (though it would dearly love to). So....I'm ready when you are.....Comrade.... -=Vel=-

That's because you believe your entire self-worth is based on your income and wealth. You won't be able to handle it.

That's it for me folks. The rest of the commies can have their last say. It's been fun.

	24-06-2003 08:44									#506
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No fear, Brother Rav....no fear.

-=Vel=-

	24-06-2003 08:45									#507
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You'ld have many an arguement from libertarians and others as to whether true capitalism exists.

	24-06-2003 08:50									#508
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Capitalism exists in so many places and so many forms that one would have to assume that at some point it has been implemented correctly. But I don't really see it that way. I think capitalism will work about as well as it does, no real improvement can be made to it, and eventually it won't work at all and we will choose communism.

Careful here thats the same line of thinking that got everyone in a lather before only we were talking about communism. The example of China, USSR etc. kept being brought up only to be dismissed as improper implementation and not true communism.

Anyhoo onto the next thread.

	24-06-2003 08:51									#509
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Yes... on to the next thread...