21-06-2003 22:14									#31
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Using words like "only" does not express generalities, Boris. If he would've said "most" or "all except JohnT's family and a few others I don't know about", he might've gotten away with it. Big deal: it doesn't change the intrinsic worth of the book, which we both rate as very high. The chart is already adjusted for inflation and COLA increases (see where it says "2001 dollars"?). Doing so again is unnecessary.

General histories like HoW deal with generalities. Words are precious in such a tome, so he has to be as concise as possible. If you look at those numbers, the bottom group's income increased 7% in 10 years, compared to the top group's 43% increase. That's widening the wealth gap quite a bit. Did the purchasing power of the poor increase? Not substantially.

I find your clinging to this one phrase, out of the entire scope of the work, as indicative more of your political bias than Roberts'. Heaven forbid someone say something not entirely positive about Reagan!

	21-06-2003 22:22									#32
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No, the point is that the book is a general work: names and effects of individuals are rarely discussed, other than their place in larger historical trends.

	21-06-2003 22:29									#33
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"I find your clinging to this one phrase, out of the entire scope of the work, as indicative more of your political bias than Roberts'. Heaven forbid someone say something not entirely positive about Reagan!"

No doubt that my reaction shows my biases. It's called being human.

Did you not read my post in the How did the area of Europe advance so quickly? thread, where I quoted Roberts extensively? Likely not, or else you wouldn't have made such a silly assertion as the above in regards to what I remember out of the book. tsk-tsk.

	21-06-2003 22:34									#34
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Yes I had read that, but what does that have to do with your claiming Roberts is a leftist based on one turn of phrase? I didn't say you didn't like Roberts or didn't appreciate his work or didn't think he was a great historian. I just pointed out that the evidence he is politically leftist is thin, so branding him such is unwarranted.

Nice strawman, though!

	21-06-2003 22:35									#35
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Thanks!

I was inspired by all the strawmen thrown at me by Kidicious in the various Capitalism/Communism threads.

	22-06-2003 04:10									#36
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strawmen?

	22-06-2003 18:10									#37
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History of the World is the only advice anyone can give?

Do you guys really want to keep me uneducated?

	22-06-2003 19:01									#38
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What exactly are you trying to learn about? Do you want to learn about constitutional matters? If so, look at the standard A-level textbooks. Do you want international relations? Media studies? Politics and society? Political histories? General, or country-specific?

A good rule of thumb is to ignore any edition written before 1990 as completely outdated.

	23-06-2003 19:38									#39
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I'm trying to learn different points of view than the lefty crap you get to hear in Europe.

Therefore, Americans less critical than Michael Moore and more conservative would be good sources.

	23-06-2003 20:58									#40
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im not sure id call Paul kennedy a rightwinger. Hes a realist, and i believe studied with Kissinger, but i didnt see anything that id call a right wing slant in Rise and Fall of the Great powers, it would fit liberal realist politics as well. It was good, though i think some of its views are arguable, and he didnt do a great job of prediciting the future. Definitely worth reading.

	23-06-2003 21:03									#41
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i havent read any Kagan other than magazine articles, but he seems to perhaps the most reasonable and insightful of the neo-cons, so if youre looking for that perspective (somewhat different than realists like Brezinski, Kissinger, and Kennedy) that would be a good place to start.

I take it youre mainly interested in US foreign policy generally, with an emphasis on geopolitics? If youre particularly interested in the WOT, one book ive glanced at that looks very good is Paul Bermans "Liberalism and Terror" looked like a more thoughtful, less angry, more sober equivalent of Christopher Hitchens on terror.

	23-06-2003 21:09									#42
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you might be well served by getting a clearer view of "right winger" You have included 3 realists (kissinger, Brez, and Kennedy) and 1 (relatively moderate) neo-con. Brez and kennedy would not be considered right wing by most in the States, i think, and Kissinger was widely despised by the Reaganite right, though i suppose hes thought better of lately. Kagan is a neo-con, and a good one, but there are more "right wing neo-cons" about (michael Ledeen?) and there is opinion to the right of neo-con. You might browse the weekly standard and the National review (both available free online) for a sense of what "right wing" american opinion makers are thinking about, and which authors they tend to cite. You could try the same with the New Republic, although thats considered centrist to moderately liberal over here ( though it is probably rightwing to the eurolefties)

	23-06-2003 21:09									#43
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I don't know what WOT stands for but "US foreign policy with an emphasis on geopolitics is just it"

thanks man, finally some opinion on the ones I had in mind

	23-06-2003 21:11									#44
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as I have said, American realists would, due to their tendency to real politics, quite often be considered right wingers in Europe, the land of pacifist daydreaming and lefty-influenced welfare states.

	23-06-2003 21:14									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion I don't know what WOT stands for but "US foreign policy with an emphasis on geopolitics is just it" thanks man, finally some opinion on the ones I had in mind

wot=war on terrorism

	23-06-2003 21:25									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion as I have said, American realists would, due to their tendency to real politics, quite often be considered right wingers in Europe, the land of pacifist daydreaming and lefty-influenced welfare states.

there are at least a few americans who are sympathetic to welfare states, but take a "hard line" on foreign policy. Youre most likely to find this viewpoint in the New Republic. Associated to some degree with third wayism, as in UK. But, like Blairism, these guys are easily outflanked on the left on domestic policy. **** Gephardt, who was pro-Iraq war, and is pro-national health insurance, may bring attention to this if he does well in Dem primaries.

Another neo-con whose articles are well worth reading is David Brooks. Find him in the Weekly Standard.

For a discussion of American viewpoint on foreign policy theres an article (book?) somewhere by Walter Russel Meade - who talks about 4 orientations - Hamiltonian (realist/mercantilist) Jeffersonian (isolationist/idealist) Wilsonian (multilateralist) and Jacksonian (nationalist/unilateralist) These labels have begun to make their way into US discourse, especially on the right, in the last couple of years, though i dont think Meade is a rightist.

I would note that there is an element of aggressive/wilsonianianism (again, think Blairism) that is on the center of US for pol opinion, but looks right wing to continental europe (despite fischers flirtation with it) This shades off into a more moderate right wing positions, both realist and neo-con - the more sensible neo-cons are not completley hostile to multilateralism. There is a nationalism/unilateralist element that hates multilateralism on principle, and i dont think your list captures that.

	23-06-2003 22:13									#47
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"My list" was just a quickly compiled collection of books, mostly by amazon's "people who bought this also bought that", I must be honest . However, I tried picking those which I had heard the author's names of before. The ones you mentioned, apart from Mr Gephardt, are completely new to me.

	23-06-2003 22:39									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion "My list" was just a quickly compiled collection of books, mostly by amazon's "people who bought this also bought that", I must be honest . However, I tried picking those which I had heard the author's names of before. The ones you mentioned, apart from Mr Gephardt, are completely new to me.

about your "list " - understood.

Richard Gephardt (didnt expect poly to censor the common english nickname for Richard) is a politician, not a writer.

Ledeen's latest

"The War Against the Terror Masters: Why It Happened. Where We Are Now. How We'll Win."

Doesnt sound nearly as good as Kagan to me, but hes influential on the right.

	23-06-2003 22:44									#49
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I know, he's some democrats guy, their leader in the senate or congress or so, damned if I know

As for Ledeen etc, I'm going to note down some of those names. Thing is, books aren't for free and I'm a poor guy

	23-06-2003 22:45									#50
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however, if there's a chance to read some of their articles online...

	23-06-2003 22:47									#51
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a ledeen title from before 9/11

"Freedom Betrayed: How America Led a Global Democratic Revolution, Won the Cold War, and Walked Away"

Victor Davis Hanson is a think somewhat better than Ledeen and is also popular on the right. His latest:
" An Autumn of War: What America Learned from September 11 and the War on Terrorism"

"The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq "by Ken Pollack is not quite the topic youre looking for, and has been passed by events. It has been highly influential and illustrates some of the flux near the center. Though widely cited on the right, Pollack is a former Clinton official, and has stated that he would have waited longer than Bush before attacking Iraq.

	23-06-2003 22:54									#52
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I've actually heard the name Pollack before... probably on some thread titles anyway

	23-06-2003 23:00									#53
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in addition to paradise and power you might look at
" Present Dangers: Crisis and Opportunity in American Foreign and Defense Policy"

Since its a collection essays by several righters, it may lead you to other thinkers you find more interesting. Kristol, like Kagan, is a neo-con, and so I presume most of the authors in the book are as well.


And since we're tossing around the term the neo-con alot, you might try the following:

"Neo-Conservatism: The Autobiography of an Idea"
by Irving Kristol, father of neo-con (and of William Kristol), former Trotskyite, widely admired and widely reviled.

Someone who is considered a centrist/liberal here, but is rightwing by Euroleftie standards, is New York Times colomnist Tom Friedman. His latest :
"Longitudes and Attitudes: Exploring the World After September 11 "

another liberal who may be a rightie by euro standards
Fareed Zakaria:
"The Future of Freedom: Illiberal Democracy at Home and Abroad"

and multilateralist/realist Joseph Nye
"The Paradox of American Power: Why the World's Only Superpower Can't Go It Alone "

and heres the name of the Walter Russel Meade book:
"Special Providence: American Foreign Policy and How it Changed the World "

and a general background for understanding America - if you havent read De Tocqueville's "Democracy in America" you should - in addition to being very insightful about the American charecter, and some broader issues of politics and society, its very widely read among Americans who think seriously about politics, and looms in the background of much discussion.

oh and Max Boot seems to be influential among Neo-cons. see:
"The Savage Wars of Peace: Small Wars and the Rise of American Power "

	23-06-2003 23:04									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion I know, he's some democrats guy, their leader in the senate or congress or so, damned if I know As for Ledeen etc, I'm going to note down some of those names. Thing is, books aren't for free and I'm a poor guy

I sympathize - if you were to buy every serious book written in america on foreign affairs and the global situation in the last year or two it would cost a small fortune.

	23-06-2003 23:05									#55
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I sympathize - if you were to buy every serious book written in america on foreign affairs and the global situation in the last year or two it would cost a small fortune.

but then that would be true for almost any subject.

	23-06-2003 23:10									#56
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that's why someone said forget all the pre-1990 cold war stuff... however, I might be going to study politics anyway, so I might end up having a lot of time for reading all that stuff

and ending up being a true American *rises from seat and sings to the Star Spangled Banner*

	23-06-2003 23:17									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion that's why someone said forget all the pre-1990 cold war stuff... however, I might be going to study politics anyway, so I might end up having a lot of time for reading all that stuff and ending up being a true American *rises from seat and sings to the Star Spangled Banner*

It could be argued that the discourse has changed so much one could almost discount anything pre-9/11. Pre 9/11 i still useful background to ideological arguments, but then so is pre-1989. (Most americans who write about such things take '89 as the division of eras, not 1990) Indeed the sense that 9/11 marks a different era is one of the things that seperates Americans and Europeans, I think.

A good blog thats thoughtful and focused on geopolitics and political philosophy, and is centrist to right of center, is Oxblog (several current and former American Oxford students, from wilsonian centrists to neo-cons)

	23-06-2003 23:23									#58
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I thought of 1990 just as the general dimension.

Is there a way t osave a thread on one page? I might need all this writing (including the scratching and puffing between Boris and John ) at some point later on. And maybe the stuff that is still coming

	25-06-2003 17:51									#59
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I said is still coming

	25-06-2003 18:14									#60
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Click on "Show a Printable Version." Make sure that ALL posts are on one page - if they are not, you should have the option somewhere to do so.

If you are using IE, click on file, click on save. IE will create an HTML document and a folder linked to that document for all graphics, icons and stuff.