21-06-2003 18:41									#1
	Need book advise (non-fictional, politics mostly)...! Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hi

Hopefully this thread doesn't get deleted, too

Interested in recent history and politics, I've been reading some stuff lately. It's easy to get recommendations on lefty literature, but that's always the same, and it doesn't help building a picture of the whole thing (talking most recent and current developments, mostly). So I thought I might have a look into some (mostly American) stuff that'd be considered more to the right or at least less anti-US then the crap you're advised to read in Europe. Following a list of books that I've put on a list, some of them might not fit in at all. Which of those, do you think, are most essential for a recent politics newbie?

Keep in mind I'm just a graduate student, so my budget is limited.

.
Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire
Chalmers A. Johnson (EUR 13,64)

Dreaming War
Gore Vidal (EUR 10,87)

The End of the American Era: U.S. Foreign Policy and the Geopolitics of the Twenty-First Century
Charles Kupchan (EUR 25,41)

Diplomacy.
Henry A. Kissinger (EUR 20,01)

The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers
Paul Kennedy (EUR 15,46)

- this one doesn't seem too recent in field of discourse, though, might be interesting, though...

Does America Need a Foreign Policy? Towards a New Diplomacy for the 21st Century.
Henry Kissinger (EUR 13,41)

The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives
Zbigniew K. Brzezinski (EUR 15,91)

- even Mr Todd recommended this one

Paradise and Power: America Versus Europe in the Twenty-first Century
Robert Kagan (EUR 14,92)

It basically adds up to who is the best right winger

Total sum of the above; €129+, slightly above what I have in mind for an average amazon purchase

	21-06-2003 18:42									#2
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Those are your definition of right wing books?

	21-06-2003 18:47									#3
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As I have said, those are the guys that are more US-centered and less lefty than the ones you're recommended in Europe. And yes, Mr Brzezinski would be considered right wing on the ol' continent.

We all know that in order to be considered a right winger in America you have to be the devil himself

	21-06-2003 18:52									#4
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A great general overview of 20th Century history is J.M. Roberts' obtusely-titled A History of the 20th Century.

	21-06-2003 18:52									#5
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back in the Reagan days there was like a joke with latin Americans being asked what they think of Poles.

their reply: Poles are strange, and there are only 2 different types of Poles. Some are very good people, in fact the best people on Earth. The others are evil hellish scum.

Asked how they had come to that conclusion they answered they had deduced it from the only Poles they knew, Pope John Paul II and Zbigniew Brzezinski.

	21-06-2003 18:53									#6
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What's the author's general political leaning, Boris?

	21-06-2003 18:53									#7
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I don't read "recent political" books, so I can't really give you a good recommendation here.

OTOH, if you want a good "right wing" history of the US, you can do far, far worse than Britisher Paul Johnson's A History of the American People.

	21-06-2003 18:55									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion What's the author's general political leaning, Boris?

Fairly neutral, but being an Oxford don, I'd say he's rather conservative-leaning.

	21-06-2003 18:56									#9
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BTW, even right wingers should use some logic in their argumentation. I won't bother reading religious pamphletes.

	21-06-2003 18:58									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion What's the author's general political leaning, Boris?

Mr. Roberts is a Leftist, but he does a pretty good job of hiding it in his writings. But, sometimes, he just can't help himself and has to throw in a demonstrably untrue "fact" as he did in his History of the World where he baldly stated "Only the rich got richer in Reagan's America."

(The shame isn't that he felt that way (though it is wrong), it is that he did such a great job of objectivity for the rest of the book that the comment was really glaring.)

One thing that has struck me in regards to "left wing" and "right wing" histories is that the righties are always more optimistic, while the lefties can't stop wringing their hands.

	21-06-2003 19:03									#11
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Anyone got a real income chart for the US during the 80s?

	21-06-2003 19:07									#12
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Mr. Roberts is a Leftist, but he does a pretty good job of hiding it in his writings. But, sometimes, he just can't help himself and has to throw in a demonstrably untrue "fact" as he did in his History of the World where he baldly stated "Only the rich got richer in Reagan's America."

Cite? I have Roberts' book right here, and I don't see this phrase at all when discussing the Reagan years. On the contrary, he seems to praise Reagan's "remarkable leadership" at several points.

At any rate, it is true that the gap between rich and poor widened considerably during the Reagan years.

quote: One thing that has struck me in regards to "left wing" and "right wing" histories is that the righties are always more optimistic, while the lefties can't stop wringing their hands.

Blatantly untrue generalization. Funny how you accuse Roberts of being a leftist, but his epilogue is anything but grim.

I've read plenty of left-learning histories and political books that were quite positive in their outlook and conclusions.

	21-06-2003 19:10									#13
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History of the World = History of the 20th Century?

If not, can you recommend both?

	21-06-2003 19:15									#14
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They aren't the same. History of the World is a fantastic work, covering all of human history since early hominids. It is quite general, but feels almost like a novel in its expanse and reads very easily. It gives you a real sense of a shape and direction of history.

It is, however, 1100 pages, so not for the faint of heart!

The 20th Century one is a far more detailed look at the past 100 years. Also very well-written and insightful.

	21-06-2003 19:19									#15
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Well, according to the Census Bureau, real (2001 dollars) wage growth was like this during the Reagan Administration:

Lowest Second Third Fourth Highest Top 5
Year fifth fifth fifth fifth fifth percent
------------------------------------------------------------------------
2001 Dollars

1989 9,679 23,989 39,876 60,318 117,911 190,503
1988 9,352 23,461 39,239 59,316 113,241 178,598
1987 9,190 23,223 38,826 58,687 111,610 175,840
1986 9,159 23,054 38,491 57,973 108,390 165,565
1985 9,096 22,485 37,242 56,007 103,310 155,254
1984 9,089 22,106 36,557 55,036 99,955 146,944
1983 8,833 21,575 35,584 53,393 96,617 141,534
1982 8,786 21,492 35,465 52,730 95,119 138,638
1981 8,995 21,556 35,603 53,033 92,894 132,239

I see income gains across the board. Hope you can read the table... if not, then check the original at http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/histinc/h03.html

	21-06-2003 19:20									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Cite? I have Roberts' book right here, and I don't see this phrase at all when discussing the Reagan years. On the contrary, he seems to praise Reagan's "remarkable leadership" at several points.

Cite will have to come later, when I get home to my well-worn copy of the book. Trust me, it's there. If you have the same copy I do (mines a hardback) it is on the same page that has the picture of Reagan shaking hands with Gorby.

Your "generalization" is my "opinion." Tomato, tomahto, Boris.

	21-06-2003 19:21									#17
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you will notice that the top fifth gains the most, the claim seems wrong though...

	21-06-2003 19:23									#18
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I did notice that. I also noticed that my family was in the bottom fifth in 1981 and in the top 2/5ths in 1989, ergo his claim that "only" the rich... is incorrect.

	21-06-2003 19:24									#19
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oh wow, I bet they invested some money in Saddam in 1981

	21-06-2003 19:28									#20
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Naw, typical stuff that happens in America: The department was outsourced, so the (soon to be fired) managers decided to start their own business supplying that which was now being outsourced. Contracts were awarded, everybody just switched corporate names on paychecks, and etc...

	21-06-2003 19:31									#21
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alright, couldn't happen as easily in Europe, social mobility is pretty low

in case someone missed it:

History of the World = History of the 20th Century?

If not, can you recommend both?

	21-06-2003 19:32									#22
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Well, according to the Census Bureau, real (2001 dollars) wage growth was like this during the Reagan Administration:

John, John, John...the chart supports what Roberts is asserting. If you adjust for inflation and cost of living increases, the relative wealth of the bottom income-earners changed negligibly, but the wealthiest's increased considerably. That was the point of what Roberts was saying, and he is correct.

He was speaking in a generality, which is an accepted literary device, and his generality is essentially correct. That your family defied the trend is great, but Roberts is addressing what was most common, not the exceptions.

	21-06-2003 19:33									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion alright, couldn't happen as easily in Europe, social mobility is pretty low in case someone missed it: History of the World = History of the 20th Century? If not, can you recommend both?

I answered this after the fist time you asked.

	21-06-2003 19:34									#24
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Boris answered it. They are not the same book.

History of the World was the original work, first published (IIRC) in the 1950's. A History of Europe has many of the exact same passages as HoW and can be considered an extension of the original. I haven't read Ho20thCen, but it is likely the same.

	21-06-2003 19:36									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov John, John, John...the chart supports what Roberts is asserting. If you adjust for inflation and cost of living increases, the relative wealth of the bottom income-earners changed negligibly, but the wealthiest's increased considerably. That was the point of what Roberts was saying, and he is correct. He was speaking in a generality, which is an accepted literary device, and his generality is essentially correct. That your family defied the trend is great, but Roberts is addressing what was most common, not the exceptions.

Using words like "only" does not express generalities, Boris. If he would've said "most" or "all except JohnT's family and a few others I don't know about", he might've gotten away with it. Big deal: it doesn't change the intrinsic worth of the book, which we both rate as very high.

The chart is already adjusted for inflation and COLA increases (see where it says "2001 dollars"?). Doing so again is unnecessary.

	21-06-2003 19:47									#26
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JM Roberts died this past May 30th at the age of 75.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituarie...,971519,00.html

Btw, it lists the first printing of the HoW as 1976... where did I get the fifties from?

His book "Triumph of the West" is available for free online, btw.

	21-06-2003 19:48									#27
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The Tragedy of Great Power Politics by John J. Mearsheimer

	21-06-2003 19:49									#28
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isn't inflation included in real income calculation?

	21-06-2003 20:20									#29
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Yes.

My apologies: only 20 pages of Triumph of the West can be found online. http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/roberts1.htm

	21-06-2003 21:54									#30
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You are forgiven.

Any opinions on Kissinger, Kagan, Vidal, Brzezinski...