21-06-2003 21:27									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's How do we take the simulation outside of the universe?

Take it to a BNP rally?

	21-06-2003 21:27									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: No, but I don't believe we have free will. Free will is a bullshit expression anyway. WTF is free will?

I may poke you in the eyes or I may not. What determines?

	21-06-2003 21:32									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy I choose not to believe you... we've had this argument before.

We as you and me or just "we"? I don't remember. Then again I don't remember a lot of stuff.


Anyway, I think very much the same way as uber.

	21-06-2003 21:36									#34
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quote: I may poke you in the eyes or I may not. What determines?

The connections of the neural network of your brain, constantly shaped by years of different experiences, as well as in-brain interactions ( dreaming, thinking ). Our previous interactions...

	21-06-2003 22:32									#35
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Physicists may laugh at what Im saying but I think the universe can be understood and predicted thru science.

None of this quantum physics, I think uncertainty comes only from our limitations, thats all.

	21-06-2003 23:01									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX just because you couldnt measure it or predict it doesnt mean it didnt happen.

I know. I just find Bill Gates/my existence predetermined a hard thing to get my head around.


How do we take the simulation outside the universe?
-What if this universe is a simulation of a slower one?

	21-06-2003 23:09									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat How do we take the simulation outside the universe? -What if this universe is a simulation of a slower one?

STOP! YOU'RE FRYING MY BRAIN!

	21-06-2003 23:30									#38
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IW: I don't quite understand what do you mean by that.

	21-06-2003 23:31									#39
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet Take it to a BNP rally?

	22-06-2003 00:12									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat How do we take the simulation outside the universe? -What if this universe is a simulation of a slower one?

For some reason, probably latent hypno-suggestion, this question gave me an image of a purely radiative universe flashing in and out of existence without its occupents knowledge, and all because massless particles have no concept of time.

	22-06-2003 00:19									#41
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What definition of free will do we use here?

Is no free will = no freedom for own conscient (or however this is spelled) decisions?

	22-06-2003 00:22									#42
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Who needs definitions! Let's just argue

	22-06-2003 00:23									#43
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I forgot this is Poly

	22-06-2003 01:39									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel IW: I don't quite understand what do you mean by that.

What if there is a being living outside of this universe, let us for the sake of argument call him Odg. Now Odg has a great talent - he can create universes from particles of matter he has lying around in his back yard. One day, he creates a universe, and its all going well, its inhabitants are worshipping him, gravity works, quantum theory hasn't been discovered yet, everybody is happy. But Odg wants to know what happens next, so he creates a perfect simulation of his universe, running it at twice the speed. - Now in reality () this would have to be a copy of the universe, no less precise a simulation will do. So he has another universe exactly the same as the previous one, running at twice the speed. What if the new universe is our universe?


BC:

	22-06-2003 01:50									#45
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That's great . But what does this have to do with chance?

I think I'll be going to bed now.

	22-06-2003 01:50									#46
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IW: On second thoughts, it may just be because I just finished off my 4th Heinekin. Now on my 6th. Wahay!

	22-06-2003 01:52									#47
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Big Crunch:

I think it's time for some... refreshing orange juice for me.

	22-06-2003 01:55									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel That's great . But what does this have to do with chance?

Well if this universe is a simulation, then it implies universes can be simulated, which implies there is no free will, or at least that free will can be found algorythmically.

	22-06-2003 01:58									#49
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Wait... YES! I got it! Thanks!

	22-06-2003 04:58									#50
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Stupidity makes the world go round. Bloody-minded stubborn idiotic mindless obsessive stupidity.

	22-06-2003 05:05									#51
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Didn't Stephen Hawking postulate begrudgingly that there is no free will, that everything that will happen was determined at the instant of the Big Bang?

	22-06-2003 06:35									#52
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I believe in fate so far as Complexity Theory provides the basis for our actions, and since we are all merely a product of our genes and our experience, I believe there is no such thing as free will, as neither of those two things are in our control. Since we cannot control who we are, we are not directly responsible for what actions we take. I don't believe in predetermining, but I do believe that if we were to know the exact position and velocity of every atom in our bodies, and every impulse in our brain, we could predict how someone would act in a certain circumstance. However since we cannot know both the position and velocity, we cannot predetermine. Therefore while no-one knows the future, I believe it is planned, but planned by nature, for want of a better phrase. That does not quite explain what I mean, but I can't really express it exactly.

	22-06-2003 06:38									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Zero Physicists may laugh at what Im saying but I think the universe can be understood and predicted thru science. None of this quantum physics, I think uncertainty comes only from our limitations, thats all.

I agree. I think uncertainty principle means that we can never predict it, but I think it is determined.

	22-06-2003 07:15									#54
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Hmmm.

I think that there is a 'range' (i.e. "FATE") of actions that we can take, but can't exceed that 'range'. But within it, we can make our own decisions (Free Will).

On the Macro level-it's fate. On the Micro level-it's free will.

Does this make sense?

	22-06-2003 07:21									#55
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Yes, but I don't agree with it. I don't see how we have the ability to decide small things but not big things. What causes this range?

	22-06-2003 07:33									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Yes, but I don't agree with it. I don't see how we have the ability to decide small things but not big things. What causes this range?

I'm glad someone understood this.

quote: What causes this range?

Your abilities, The Supreme Being, etc. Whatever you want. I've though about this myself. I personally believe that its a combination of our physical abilities and its threshhold combined with transcendent (things beyond the physical realm) factors.

My personal belief is that someone (be it ourselves, The Almighty, what-have-you) sketches out an outline of your life and basically we fill in the details. So, let's say at some point of our life we are to experience extreme joy...but the cause of that extreme joy us up to us.

	22-06-2003 17:20									#57
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quote: Hmmm. I think that there is a 'range' (i.e. "FATE") of actions that we can take, but can't exceed that 'range'. But within it, we can make our own decisions (Free Will). On the Macro level-it's fate. On the Micro level-it's free will. Does this make sense?

Constrained free will?

	22-06-2003 18:14									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Constrained free will?

Exactly. Free will up to a certain extent, then FATE takes over...

	22-06-2003 19:44									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan Hmmm. I think that there is a 'range' (i.e. "FATE") of actions that we can take, but can't exceed that 'range'. But within it, we can make our own decisions (Free Will). On the Macro level-it's fate. On the Micro level-it's free will.

this is exactly the sort of thing that i was referring to as "synchronicity." it's kinda like mother nature conspiring for/against you.

	22-06-2003 21:53									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Didn't Stephen Hawking postulate begrudgingly that there is no free will, that everything that will happen was determined at the instant of the Big Bang?

quote: Originally posted by Stephen Hawking These quantum theories are deterministic in the sense that they give laws for the evolution of the wave with time. Thus if one knows the wave at one time, one can calculate it at any other time. The unpredictable, random element comes in only when we try to interpret the wave in terms of the positions and velocities of particles. But maybe this is our mistake: maybe there are no positions and velocities, but only waves. It is just that we try to fit the waves to our preconceived ideas of positions and velocities. The resulting mismatch is the cause of the apparent unpredictability