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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
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Y'know, I think the Arabs have good reason to be anti-Israel. |
You know that is a very smart reply to a question that I haven't asked.
I did not ask whether the Arabs have good raeson to be anti-Israel.
This thread, isn't even about people being anti-Israeli.
It's about anti-semitism and how it is used and perpetuated by the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. |
It's because the identity of Israel is constituted by being a Jewish state. I know that one can convert to Judaism but it is not easy and I gather is not actively encouraged. So it's largely true that Israel is a polity based on race. Arabs are anti-semtic in a corresponding fashion to the way in which Israel is pro-semitic.
Presumably, it would also be the case if large numbers of non-Jews wanted to emigrate to Israel that there would be massive internal opposition to this because the non-Jews might eventually become a majority (this is one reason the right of return is opposed by Israel). Consider the hammering that the UK would get if it based it's immigration policy on considerations of race. Consider the hammering that Australia still gets over its "White Australia" policy even though that has long been discontinued. The only people that want to do so are the BNP and National Front, and you know what everyone thinks of them.
In short, Israel is a state that is at conflict with modernity which has, to its credit, largely decided that statehood based on race is an anachronistic and repugnant idea.
Now the Arabs have just as much reason to detest the United States, Britain and other powers which forced the seeds of the current arrangement on them in a peremptory fashion. So one would expect their hatred not to be directed at only the Jews. And in fact it isn't - and we, in the West, wonder why these people are prepared to fly aircraft into buildings.
I imagine that New Zealanders would feel incredibly angry and resentful if say, the US, decided that New Zealand was to become an Indonesian Muslim state and moved them all here and partitioned the country. So would any bunch of people.
However, there is no question of removing all the Jews from Israel. Whatever the history of their coming, it would be genocidal to forcibly remove them. But something must be done and Israel has to give up quite a bit - they hold all the cards and are largely in the wrong on this one.
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And the fact that you seem to think that Imaams telling their followers that evil greedy jews are buying their lands, is a legitimate anti-Israeli criticism, just proves my point. |
I think that this is over the top and plainly wrong. But calling Israel a racist state is not too much of an exaggeration.
But, frankly, most of this would disappear if Israel did, which shows that Arab opposition is really to Israel and not to Jews per se. Or do you think that if Israel ceased to exist that Arabs would mercilessly bomb bagel shops in New York? Somehow I don't think they would.
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MRT144
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Seattle Washington
Oct 2002
time: 21:29
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i hate israel but i love jews
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:29
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quote:
It's because the identity of Israel is constituted by being a Jewish state. I know that one can convert to Judaism but it is not easy and I gather is not actively encouraged. So it's largely true that Israel is a polity based on race. Arabs are anti-semtic in a corresponding fashion to the way in which Israel is pro-semitic.
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Israel is not based on race but rather on a nationality that has ethnic and religious distinctions.
Syria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt all have just as much, if not MORE ethnic symbols, ethnic pride and tales of great history and culture.
There's absolutely no reason to hold this only against Israel.
And you singling Israel out like that, suggests that you have succumb to some of the propoganda, sadly.
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Presumably, it would also be the case if large numbers of non-Jews wanted to emigrate to Israel that there would be massive internal opposition to this because the non-Jews might eventually become a majority (this is one reason the right of return is opposed by Israel). Consider the hammering that the UK would get if it based it's immigration policy on considerations of race. Consider the hammering that Australia still gets over its "White Australia" policy even though that has long been discontinued. The only people that want to do so are the BNP and National Front, and you know what everyone thinks of them. |
Erm, this is silly.
First of all, England and Australia are not ethno-national states, but rather political-national states.
England stopped being ethnic based because of many immigrants from former colonies, and Australia is an immigrant's land, so it never had basis to be ethnic based.
Furthermore, no number of immigrants would jeopardize the english marjority of locals versus immigrants.
Israel has some 4.8 jews and 1.3 arabs (figures in millions).
Get 3.5 more arabs in here.. and it's even. bye bye jewish state.
And another thing, the immigrants to the UK are not hostile to it, while possible arab immigrants (or refugees) to Israel, are very hostile to it.
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In short, Israel is a state that is at conflict with modernity which has, to its credit, largely decided that statehood based on race is an anachronistic and repugnant idea.
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Not race, but rather national identity, in which ethnicity and religion play an important role. I know, it clashes with the modern "let's all be non-religious and live in purely political states" trend, but hey, we never had a state during the spring of nations. Give us our 100 years 
quote:
Now the Arabs have just as much reason to detest the United States, Britain and other powers which forced the seeds of the current arrangement on them in a peremptory fashion. So one would expect their hatred not to be directed at only the Jews. And in fact it isn't - and we, in the West, wonder why these people are prepared to fly aircraft into buildings.
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To think that this all eminates from a small dot in the huge muslim populated land, that is populated by muslims, is silly.
It really is a religious war. I don't know why people never believe wackos when they tell them their intentions. Hilter told people his intentions. Infact, his cell mate from prison wrote a book about it, that people ignored.
Now, Bin Laden's organization isn't called Al-Qaeda. That's a nick. The full name is something along "the organization for holy war against the christians and the jews".
So it is very much about people who hate our religion and freedom.
But you're again blurring the lines between legitimate and illegitimate actions.
There is absolutely no logic that says that since Israel is an enemy, and it's a jewish state, it's ok to tell people that jews drink blood, rule the world, or kill them wherever they are.
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I imagine that New Zealanders would feel incredibly angry and resentful if say, the US, decided that New Zealand was to become an Indonesian Muslim state and moved them all here and partitioned the country. So would any bunch of people. |
That's great but you're trivializing the Muslim war against the west to the issue of Israel alone.
Don't forget Chechnya, Nigeria(i think), Fillipines (if i'm not mistaken), lots of the "-stans" (former soviet republics in asia).
The same "warriors" that fought in Israel, fought in all those hotspots as well. It's a part of a global effort to expand the canvas of muslim dominated states, and get Sharya law imposed on states where the muslims are still a minority.
You constantly fail to see the bigger picture. Islam is still making it's crusades. Israel is just one place.
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However, there is no question of removing all the Jews from Israel. Whatever the history of their coming, it would be genocidal to forcibly remove them. But something must be done and Israel has to give up quite a bit - they hold all the cards and are largely in the wrong on this one. |
Great.
The solution to jew-hating is to remove the "root" of the problem. The Jewish state.
You go again blaming Jews for being persecuted by the same images used in the middle ages. In no way, the political situation in Israel justifies, legitimizes or even could be considered a normal cause for the demonization process that is hapenning around the world.
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I think that this is over the top and plainly wrong. But calling Israel a racist state is not too much of an exaggeration. |
But that is exactly what is going on.
I'm saying: "The conflict is used as a reason to spread terrible anti-semitic images".
You're saying: "Well, let's see if we make Israel smaller and not jewish, maybe they'll have less reasons to hate you, and they'll stop".
But you are again ignoring the huge power of prejudice, propoganda and racism have, in shaping world views and political interpertations.
Currently the situation is NOT "the jews control the west bank, and thus we hate them, and thus they are devils and drink blood"
The situation today is: "the jews are devils and drink blood, and now they got hold of the west bank. kill jews!!!"
Reasoning is lost, and the racist rhethorics, have moved to take precedence over actual gripes and geo-political conflicts.
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But, frankly, most of this would disappear if Israel did, which shows that Arab opposition is really to Israel and not to Jews per se. Or do you think that if Israel ceased to exist that Arabs would mercilessly bomb bagel shops in New York? Somehow I don't think they would. |
This is again silly.
For instance, Jews were represented as blood drinking devil servants in Syria, years before Zionism took shape. Infact, that was one of the leading causes for zionism's birth.
And the current conflict with muslim hatred of the west, is part of a well orchestrated religious war, that is racist and fanatical.
If jews didn't control Palestine, they'd be represented as controlling the western media and governments (as they already are).
quote:
Or do you think that if Israel ceased to exist that Arabs would mercilessly bomb bagel shops in New York? Somehow I don't think they would.
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Then the warrior muslims would find some other gripe and blame it on some other people. Maybe they'd put more energy into blowing up buildings in Moscow.
I'm talking to you about the dangers of racism going from rhethoric to actual content, and you're answering me that jews brought it on themselves, by being "in their face". Not only is it irrelevant, I also think that justifying anti-semitism using the equivalent of "well, you are in a political conflict with them so it's just natural that they present you as blood drinking monkeys sons of satan" is horrible. But that is what you're doing.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:29
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Well then, plainly Jew bashing posts should be deleted. So should posts that assume that everyone who is less than enamoured of Israel is an anti-semite. |
Yes, I'm sure that saying "those dirty jews are drinking the blood of palestinian children" is a legitimate response in light of recent political developments. 
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I don't think much of Israel, but I actively participated in having a Nazi holocaust denier and his mentor (a former Hitler Youth member) thrown out of my old university. I did the latter because I think holocaust denial is wrong and has no place in a University since it is inevitably (and was in this case) just a means of Jew bashing. |
Excellent.
It still doesn't mean that when you use racist rhethoric against Jews because they support Israel, it is anything but jew bashing.
Furthermore, putting Israel to higher standards than everyone else is also "jew" bashing.
Israel is by far not the only country in the world, which defines itself by ethnical or religious nationality, instead of a geographical, political one.
Infact, the proposed Palestinian state, would follow the exact same model, and will be a "Paletinian" state.
But of course, when Israel feels the need to demonstrate it's cultural heritage in the state mechanisms, it's wrong and undemocratic.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:29
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This thread is boring.
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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Israel is not based on race but rather on a nationality that has ethnic and religious distinctions. |
Bollocks, it's a Jewish State.
quote:
Syria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt all have just as much, if not MORE ethnic symbols, ethnic pride and tales of great history and culture. |
Are these modern western democracies?
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There's absolutely no reason to hold this only against Israel. |
Yes there is - Israel is supposed to be a modern, developed country.
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And you singling Israel out like that, suggests that you have succumb to some of the propoganda, sadly. |
I never read any of it.
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First of all, England and Australia are not ethno-national states, but rather political-national states. |
They were ethno-national states and the only people that want to return them to that model are the BNP and the National Front.
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England stopped being ethnic based because of many immigrants from former colonies, and Australia is an immigrant's land, so it never had basis to be ethnic based. |
Australia was almost solely British for most of its history.
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Furthermore, no number of immigrants would jeopardize the english marjority of locals versus immigrants. |
Again, straight from the BNP's manifesto.
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Israel has some 4.8 jews and 1.3 arabs (figures in millions). Get 3.5 more arabs in here.. and it's even. bye bye jewish state. |
Good. I don't think states should be "Jewish" or "Christian" or "white" or "black".
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And another thing, the immigrants to the UK are not hostile to it, while possible arab immigrants (or refugees) to Israel, are very hostile to it. |
And why do you think that is....
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Not race, but rather national identity, in which ethnicity and religion play an important role. I know, it clashes with the modern "let's all be non-religious and live in purely political states" trend, but hey, we never had a state during the spring of nations. Give us our 100 years |
Come on - it's race.
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To think that this all eminates from a small dot in the huge muslim populated land, that is populated by muslims, is silly. |
I don't. I think most of them are justifiably angry.
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It really is a religious war. I don't know why people never believe wackos when they tell them their intentions. Hilter told people his intentions. Infact, his cell mate from prison wrote a book about it, that people ignored. |
They are pretty clear. Most of them want you lot out so they can have their land back. After that only the extreme nuts really care.
quote:
Now, Bin Laden's organization isn't called Al-Qaeda. That's a nick. The full name is something along "the organization for holy war against the christians and the jews".
So it is very much about people who hate our religion and freedom. |
But how many people would support this if Israel was gone. Not many. Even Bin Laden has mostly material things in his manifesto.
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There is absolutely no logic that says that since Israel is an enemy, and it's a jewish state, it's ok to tell people that jews drink blood, rule the world, or kill them wherever they are. |
I never said there was.
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That's great but you're trivializing the Muslim war against the west to the issue of Israel alone. |
Not really - that and oil are what the fuss is about.
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Don't forget Chechnya, Nigeria(i think), Fillipines (if i'm not mistaken), lots of the "-stans" (former soviet republics in asia). |
Why would I?
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The same "warriors" that fought in Israel, fought in all those hotspots as well. It's a part of a global effort to expand the canvas of muslim dominated states, and get Sharya law imposed on states where the muslims are still a minority. |
Oh come on...
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You constantly fail to see the bigger picture. Islam is still making it's crusades. Israel is just one place. |
It's all a conspiracy.
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The solution to jew-hating is to remove the "root" of the problem. The Jewish state. |
To the problem of "Israel hating" yes.
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You go again blaming Jews for being persecuted by the same images used in the middle ages. In no way, the political situation in Israel justifies, legitimizes or even could be considered a normal cause for the demonization process that is hapenning around the world. |
You are living on someone else's land which was given to you against the wishes of the majority of its inhabitants who had no say in the matter. You've deprived a large number of them of their civil rights and forced them to live in bantustans under a pernicious sort of apartheid.
Hell, what's not to like.
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I think that this is over the top and plainly wrong. But calling Israel a racist state is not too much of an exaggeration. |
But that is exactly what is going on. |
So - Bush tells all sorts of lies about SH, but that doesn't make SH a saint.
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I'm saying: "The conflict is used as a reason to spread terrible anti-semitic images".
You're saying: "Well, let's see if we make Israel smaller and not jewish, maybe they'll have less reasons to hate you, and they'll stop". |
Because I'm saying that the main cause of this anti-semitism is the unjust actions of Israel and the great powers.
But you are again ignoring the huge power of prejudice, propoganda and racism have, in shaping world views and political interpertations.
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Currently the situation is NOT "the jews control the west bank, and thus we hate them, and thus they are devils and drink blood" The situation today is: "the jews are devils and drink blood, and now they got hold of the west bank. kill jews!!!" |
Ever seen a WWI Propaganda poster?
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For instance, Jews were represented as blood drinking devil servants in Syria, years before Zionism took shape. Infact, that was one of the leading causes for zionism's birth. |
And Muslims were regarded as dirty lustful dope-smoking towel headed perverts. Next.
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And the current conflict with muslim hatred of the west, is part of a well orchestrated religious war, that is racist and fanatical. |
This is the usual move. Obscure the material basis of the conflict with intangibles, and then you don't have to admit you are wrong.
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If jews didn't control Palestine, they'd be represented as controlling the western media and governments (as they already are). |
But they do!!! Haven't you read the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion!!!!!
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Then the warrior muslims would find some other gripe and blame it on some other people. Maybe they'd put more energy into blowing up buildings in Moscow. |
More power to them on the latter front.
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I'm talking to you about the dangers of racism going from rhethoric to actual content, and you're answering me that jews brought it on themselves, by being "in their face". |
Not what I said.
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Not only is it irrelevant, I also think that justifying anti-semitism using the equivalent of "well, you are in a political conflict with them so it's just natural that they present you as blood drinking monkeys sons of satan" is horrible. But that is what you're doing. |
But that's what everyone does to their enemies. Picking on Muslims alone isn't fair.
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22-06-2003 01:25
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