22-06-2003 19:02									#1
	Tech trade agreement difficulties Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

We have recently received word that CFC has Horseback Riding (as of turn 73 someone had HBR - it is obviously CFC), and they are reportedly willing to fulfil the agreed trade of

Us: MapMaking and our map

for

CFC: Horseback Riding, Mathematics and their map.

HOWEVER, we have also already agreed to trade with CDG

Us: MapMaking

CDG: Philosophy and Mathematics.

We have agreed with two different civs to trade to get Mathematics.

One of these trades is obviously not going to occur in this format. There is a chance that CDG will not be ready to trade by turn 83, in which case we are sweet, as the trade option is voided then. If not however, we are faced with a difficulty. If we trade with CFC now, then we are faced with either a lopsided trade to CDG (we give MM, they give Philosophy only), or we have to try and renegotiate an agreed trade to include something else (money?) instead of Mathematics from CDG.

It has been noted that they may well raise a stink about the change of agreement.

The facts:

From a post in the FA: Correspondence thread from LouisXXIV (CDG) to BigFree and posted here May 21st

quote: Apolyton will give Elucidia Map Making while Elucidia gives Apolyton Mathematics and Philosophy. Upon completion of the technology that each team is responsible for, the team will offer the said technology to the other team on the turn it is made available to them. This offer will be remade each and every turn thereafter until the other team aquires their required technology for the trade and offer's it in return. Each team will make progress reports to the other team as to when the technologies will be researched and at what turn number they will be completed on. If either team does not complete their research 25 turns after this agreement is signed, this agreement is null and void. Signed by Apolyton on turn 57-1600 BC Signed by Elucidia on turn 57-1600 BC

This binds us to the trade deal with CDG. But, as far as I have seen, CDG is in a minor breach of this here - they have not told us when they will be ready to trade - there is an advantage here.

On June 6, ZargonX posted this that he had sent to FortyJ and Goonie of CFC:

quote: Greetings friends at CFC! On behalf of Apolyton, I would like to make the following proposal to you: We would be intersted in offering you the secrets of Map Making, as well as a copy of our world map... in exchange for... The secrets of Mathematics and Horseback Riding, as well as a copy of your own world map. We believe this trade would be mutually beneficial to both parties, and hope you feel the same. If this would be of interest to you, please contact me either here or at Apolyton. Thank you, ZargonX

As far as I can see in the same thread, there has been no formal agreement to trade with CFC. This gives us the uncomfortable predicament of being bound to trade with CDG (in a trade that favours us by two points) for a tech they have not yet been reported to possess, whereas we have no formal agreement with CFC, who we could trade with NOW.

Now we can't easily wait until turn 83 for the trade to see if CDG doesn't get it and our agreement with them is void.

We have some uneasy choices as I can think of so far.

1. Trade with CFC and agree to the trade with CDG minus getting Maths, thus favouring them hugely.

2. Trade with CFC and try to renegotiate with CDG by getting something in place of the Mathematics they would have given us. Mark knows what that new thing would be though, and they may well be annoyed at us for changing the trade (quite rightly too!)

3. Trade with CFC and hope CDG don't get the techs/accept the offer by turn 83. The agreement signed says we are to proposed the trade every turn.... We could try to get away with neglecting this and hope they forget.... Remember they are in a minor breach by not telling us what turn they will be ready for the trade? We could do the same thing with not offering the trade every turn, though this is still not very helpful.

4. Wait until turn 83 or whenever to either

• trade with CDG and do some other trade with CFC for HBR and their map or
  
  
• hope turn 83 comes and goes with no CDG trade so we can trade with CFC freely (as long as they still want to - remember the war...)
  

	22-06-2003 20:35									#2
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MrWIA, that was exactly my reaction... if we trade with CFC, we can then also trade Math to CDG, which I'm sure they won;t mind at all, the previous agreement notwithstanding.

But what further do we want from them? Worldmap? A Worker? Something in the future?

	22-06-2003 21:43									#3
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First: is it ok to assume we would be able to trade Maths to CDG? Will there be no NDA attached?

Second: these two deals were (at least I understood them as) "main & backup deals". A backup deal is exactly what it says - a backup. If both deals go through, then one of them becomes "unnecessary"... but the intention from the very beginning is not to make as much out of the whole affair as possible, but to ensure we do get the techs in time.

Thus:

1) trading with CFC now, making our deal with CDG "lopsided" sounds perfectly ok to me. Should even make us look extremely trustworthy - since CDG will see we would not need the tech, but we would still fulfill our part of the trade. That's what trustworthy partners do. They may even think we are scared of their immortals, sticking to our deals not to make them angry...

2) The idea of getting Maths from CFC, providing it to CDG in order to speed up their Philosophy research is also quite fine. If there is a way, let's try it.

3) I would strongly oppose trying to renegotiate the original trade with CDG. That's something I would mind a lot, if I was them. A signed trade is a signed trade, even if it becomes less than stellar for you, because of a backup deal materializing before the main one.

So - let's trade with CFC NOW and see what our options are then...

	22-06-2003 21:50									#4
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I've been debating this for the last 48 in the chat room with some people, and my point has been that we CANNOT ask anything extra from CDG becuase we would be in breach of the contract. Frankly it is very undiplomatic, and very tact-less to not only break a treaty but then ask the same people you broke it with to give you something additional.

"Hey, sorry, we already got Math but will you give us some extra $$ for your troubles?"

Sorry, a deal is a deal, if we break it, we must be prepared to accept the consequences. Doing this double trade was a risk, yes, now we must act cool and face the fact that we may in fact have to do a very uneven trade with CDG.

I think the best we can do is either ask for their worldmap or just some "goodwill" in the future. If anything we can push for MrWIA's last proposal but I'd like to get them in a chat first, not drop a bomb in writing...

	22-06-2003 23:06									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I agree we have to live up to any deal we signed, wether or not it is good for us once it comes to fruition.

	22-06-2003 23:20									#6
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I think vondrack and MZ have it.

We are locked into a deal with CDG. We better keep our end of that, and be happy doing it. We want to be traders. Do we want to undermine the value of these advanced contracts?

CFC has the tech now. Get it. CDG does not have philosophy yet (it is not discounted). We will be finished CoL very soon. I doubt CDG is pursuing philosophy now (they need much gold for upgrades). We will most likely have to do philosophy ourselves. If they come up with it all the better, but we shouldn't count on it.

	22-06-2003 23:24									#7
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How about going along with the deal just ignoring the mathematics part?

example: trading one team X for math, and another team Y for math. Get math from the first team, give them X, and just give the second team Y for free or whatever they were going to give you in addition to math.

This has been done a couple of times in the PTWDG that I am aware of, and has generally worked, and not made people mad.

	22-06-2003 23:32									#8
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That is what we are bound to with CDG, Panzer. IF they finish philosophy by turn 83, which I doubt very much they will. However, if they do, great! We get philosophy sooner and can speed on our way to republic.

	23-06-2003 01:01									#9
	Re: Tech trade agreement difficulties Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt We have agreed with two different civs to trade to get Mathematics.

I've been trying to point this out for the last 10 turns or so...


Better be very careful with this, now.

	23-06-2003 01:20									#10
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Well, I'm of the opinion that CDG will come through with the part of the deal and likely rather soon.

It's going on turn 75. Lets wait a bit to trade with CFC. There's nothing that says we have to trade now or even later, it was just a proposal; not an agreement.

We should, however, offer MM to CDG as per our agreement. AND at the same time contact them as to a progress report on Math and Philosophy. If they say they would have it soon, great. We then do th deal with CDG first and then re-visit the trade with CFC. We can make a new deal with CFC regarding MM since we already have Math (which I think CDG researched anyways) from CDG.

Maybe we can get gold or future tech consideration (Currency or Construction or Literature) or both along with HBR for Map Making. We have to set up some talks with CFC right after we complete the trade with CDG.

Yes, it is wrong to ask CDG for anything, especially since it is them who researched Math. CFC is the team we ask for something from. CFC is not in the need of gold right now. They don't have Iron or any WC's to upgrade to Horsemen with, at least not according to their reports. I think we stand a good chance of getting gold and/or future tech consideration from CFC.

So, On the very next turn, offer MM, unaccepted, to CDG. Have our Diplomats contact CDG about a time line for their techs. Complete the deal with CDG, if they are going to have it soon. Then contact CFC about getting a deal that includes HBR from them. CFC may say something about a proposal we already had. We say yes, that was a proposal, but it was never agreed upon by either team and we would like to re-open negotiations regarding our MM and their HBR.

Another thing we have to be careful of in this situation is CDG giving MM to CFC before we can reach an agreement with CFC regarding MM. So I have another plan for that. We first find out the deal with CDG's research, ie: When will they be done with Math and Philosophy. Then, if it is relatively soon, we imediately contact CFC and re-open negotiations with them regarding their HBR and our Map Making. We seal a deal with them about that before we trade Map Making to CDG so that CDG cannot undercut us and trade Map Making to CFC.

I would ask for 60 gold from CFC, or 7 points of future tech consideration. If that fails, settle or 40 gold and 3 points of future tech consideration.

	23-06-2003 01:59									#11
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I don't see why we have to go through all that trouble if we can get those techs NOW. CFC already has HBR and Math, we can trade immediately.

The CFC deal though not "signed and official" is still considered to be done by them and us. I though we had already started a thread about the virtues and problems of waging our diplomacy via loopholes and excuses like "well, it wasn't a signed deal so sorry". This is precisely the attitude to avoid if we hope for good relationships with other teams.

Loopholes are to save our asses "legally" (i.e. against the UN). Does anybody honestly believe that by twisting our words even in an unofficial deal the other teams won't resent it? WE would, so there's no reason to think they wouldn't, just step into their shoes.

Again, I honestly don't think it is worth it. Let's get CFC's techs now, and see if we can get a goodwill compromise from CDG.

	23-06-2003 02:13									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I don't see why we have to go through all that trouble if we can get those techs NOW. CFC already has HBR and Math, we can trade immediately.

Because, MZ, we don't need Math and HBR to move onto The Repblic. We can afford to wait on these techs. It's the trade for Philosophy with CDG that is muy impotante. If we wait, we may be able to get additional items for our Map Making tech.

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen The CFC deal though not "signed and official" is still considered to be done by them and us. I though we had already started a thread about the virtues and problems of waging our diplomacy via loopholes and excuses like "well, it wasn't a signed deal so sorry". This is precisely the attitude to avoid if we hope for good relationships with other teams.

You cannot assume what the other thinks as official or not official. I know for a fact that there has not been an officail agreement between us. If CFC 'thinks' that there is, they are mistaken. And it is their own fault for assuming so. We shall not give CFC techs/ a deal based upon what they 'thought' was a deal, especailly if it favors them so heavily as this proposed deal would.

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Loopholes are to save our asses "legally" (i.e. against the UN). Does anybody honestly believe that by twisting our words even in an unofficial deal the other teams won't resent it? WE would, so there's no reason to think they wouldn't, just step into their shoes.

We are not twisiting anyones words here. The fact is that they're are no words to twist. The only thing that went on between the two teams reagarding this deal is the proposal. It never got beyond that stage. If CFC believes it went further, ask them where does it show that in our commnuncations that it was considered official by either team.

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Again, I honestly don't think it is worth it. Let's get CFC's techs now, and see if we can get a goodwill compromise from CDG.

MZ, it is worth the extra work to get this done the right way, at least from our teams perspective. If we do this the way I stated, we can get something for Map Making from CFC besides just HBR.

	23-06-2003 02:35									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by BigFree Because, MZ, we don't need Math and HBR to move onto The Repblic. We can afford to wait on these techs. It's the trade for Philosophy with CDG that is muy impotante. If we wait, we may be able to get additional items for our Map Making tech.

We'll get Philosophy regardless. And there's no guarantee that CFC will actually give us something for not giving them Math. They said "screw you" to GCA despite overwhelming odds. What makes you think they'll suck up to us?

quote: You cannot assume what the other thinks as official or not official. I know for a fact that there has not been an officail agreement between us. If CFC 'thinks' that there is, they are mistaken. And it is their own fault for assuming so. We shall not give CFC techs/ a deal based upon what they 'thought' was a deal, especailly if it favors them so heavily as this proposed deal would.

I'm not assuming anything. CFC has openly mentioned the precise deal in their chats with me. They are in the mindset that this deal is the one that is going through.

quote: MZ, it is worth the extra work to get this done the right way, at least from our teams perspective. If we do this the way I stated, we can get something for Map Making from CFC besides just HBR.

Our team seems to agree with me, BF , in that we shouldn't be pushing this too far, just read the responses in this thread. What you are proposing "might" get us a little bit of gold (not much I grant you if at all) but it also "might" get them really pissed off for us asking that to them. I'm not saying this is going to start a war, but it is my diplomatic recomendation that we do not do this. If 2 out of 3 consuls believe we should push it then so be it, we'll push it, but again, my gut instinct tells me we shouldn't.

	23-06-2003 03:12									#14
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Just chiming in again... I very much agree with Master Zen. Squeezing few more extra gold pieces in exchange of pissing another team off (does not matter if we are right, "legally right", or whatever... they will simply be pissed off) is a bad deal.

OTOH, waiving them and allowing CDG to get MM even though we'd already have Maths from CFC will improve our standing with CDG - they will see that we stand in our word and that it is probably better to leave us be for some time... as we are easy to deal with.

Keep in mind one part of the AltSp - until we strike, we shall focus our diplomacy on keeping CDG in the fake feeling of safety and "peace". It shall be us choosing the time, not them. Whatever makes them less likely to strike (read: forget Maths and trade MM for Philosophy, if CDG delivers Philosophy in time) early is fine. Whatever makes them more likely to strike too early (read: be difficult, try renegotiating an already signed deal) is bad.

As for CFC: I agree with MZ that CFC considers the deal to be more or less official. And to be honest, we acted as if that was the case. Backing off now gains us little and lowers our credit with them. Considering that ~30-70 gold or 7 future tech points is all we can get in exchange, I would say it's better to be generous this time.

	23-06-2003 04:23									#15
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What I proposed would not, in any way, piss off CDG.

I'm only proposing that we try to get something more than HBR for Map Making.

We gave into CDG's demands for a long while, and we continue to play nice towards them until we plan to attack. That will continue.

What's wrong with making a new proposal with CFC? If they scream and say we already have a deal, fine, we let then have Map Making for HBR; that is if everyone on this team wants to give them that. We may have assumed it was a done deal, just as CFC has, but that does not mean that we can't approach them and bring up the fact that neither team finalized the deal.

Like I said, if the scream and yell about it, fine, give it to them.

I'm not trying to piss of CFC, I really think we deserve more than HBR from them for Map Making and so does CFC. They know that we know they did not research Math. CDG did. Asking for a more equitable trade sounds reasonable to me.

	23-06-2003 04:38									#16
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BigFree, put your Beta / Togas hat on.

You sound like a member of GS!!!! Yes, your stance is totally logical...

	23-06-2003 10:55									#17
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We have 3 options:

1) Inform CFC that we have a deal pending with CDG for Math (they got Math from CDG anyhow, they know CDG is trying to trade it) and that we would be happy to trade with them IF the deal doesn't go through. If it does goe through, we'd be happy to trade them HBR + WM + "X" for MM + WM. We just need to negotiate X and give them a few extra points to round it off.

2) Take CFC's trade now and then, if and when CDG comes through with their techs, only ask for Philosophy and give them MM in exchange. We live up to our written agreement. CDG researched Math anyhow, it's not like they didn't put in the research cost for their techs. They lived up to their end, we live up to ours, we just get Math a little sooner this way and CFC gets the benefit as they're giving us CDG's tech before CDG gives it to us.

3) Delay trading with CFC to see if CDG can come through with their tech on time. We don't need Math or HBR now. This option is the safest but it leaves CFC out to dry.

My preference is 2, 1, 3 in that order.

--Togas

	23-06-2003 11:01									#18
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My preference is also 2, 1 , 3

Like I said we took a risk by trading for a same tech with 2 teams. The idea was good as we did not know if CDG was bluffing at the time. However, it seems that they will live up to the deal so I believe we should too. Considering that CFC is taking this deal as a "given" as both of us have been constantly refering to it, I find it very hypocritical that we suddenly change it at the last minute. We must learn when to balance the delicate act of loophole/backstab with honoring our deals, even if they've been not 100% official. I feel right now we should do the latter.

	23-06-2003 11:08									#19
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Before we decide anything- information is key. Thus so far BF and I (we haven't seen nye just yet) agree that we should contact CDG first and ask when they will be ready to trade and insist on a turn answer. Then we have not worked out the final details afterwards, but if they are ready now then we basically have to trade. If they will not be ready for some turns, then we can offer to change the trade to do it NOW if they would like, or if they will be unable to trade before turn 83, when the deal is voided. If they say definitively "no", then we are stuck with the CDG trade and have to work out something else with CFC. If they agree to a different trade, then we can get what we want from CFC and work out the new trade with CDG.

The agreement we have with CDG is binding only if at least one party still agrees to it. Else we can both make an agreement voiding it, and come up with a new one. Contrary to the opinion that offering a renegotiation might offend them, I think it would do the opposite, if handled well. If they seem to be having difficulty getting their side of the techs ready, then we are offering a way out where we could just let the deal expire and they luck out (us too, but that's not what they're thinking about). Otherwise we are offering an alternative if they like as opposed to demanding a change. We are just asking if that old deal is still acceptable and attainable. If so OK, we then know where we stand, but if not then we could get a different trade and in the mean time quickly get Maths and HBR from CFC.

	23-06-2003 11:19									#20
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2 1 3 for me, too.

Plus, I do agree it is a good idea to check the progress of CDG's research... they may be happy to change the deal (because of being late with Philosophy), checking costs us nothing.

And one last question: I have read many times that it was actually CDG researching Maths and that CFC got Maths from CDG... How do we know that? What was CFC researching, if not Maths? I admit I have most probably missed a chatlog or some other comm that was making this clear, so just point me out to the relevant source, please.

	23-06-2003 11:28									#21
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I agree with MrWIA, we simply need that info from CDG to be able to make any further informed decisions.

	23-06-2003 11:31									#22
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We'll try to get you that info as soon as possible.

As for CFC aquiring Math as opposed to researching it, I can't recall which of the chats that was in, but I recall learning that information from Octavian X during one of our informal "what to do about GCA" chats.

I'll ask Zargon to get us a more official explaination, but it's very clear that they couldn't have finished Math AND HBR that recently.

My recollection is that they were doing a relgious tech research that GC wouldn't trade to them, Mysticism perhaps, and then may have had to switch to HBR when hostilities flared up with GC. It is also possible that they traded/bought HBR from a mystery source as many have theorized.

--Togas

	23-06-2003 11:33									#23
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Yes, Togas, it was in a chat that CFC said they would be getting Math from CDG. It was in a chat I was in with MZ and OctavianX, IIRC.

	23-06-2003 11:35									#24
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Ouch...

actually, I'm going to not have Zargon ask them about tech UNTIL we first talk to CDG. Us bringing up the subject with CFC and then holding back on them with this trade is going to ruffle feathers.

1) We find out info from CDG about their tech progress.

2) We make a trade decision.

3) We inform CFC of our decision and talk to them about their tech research ... see what they'll tell us. In the past they have been less-than-helpful in all official correspondences about their research. They seem to be more forthcoming when simply chatting.

--Togas