22-06-2003 21:13									#1
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quote: For more than a decade, Saddam Hussein went to great lengths to hide his weapons from the world. And in the regime's final days, documents and suspected weapons sites were looted and burned.

So he's going to spin some new lies to cover his old lies?

quote: The intelligence services of many nations concluded that he had illegal weapons and the regime refused to provide evidence they had been destroyed.

The question is, how much?

quote: We are determined to discover the true extent of Saddam Hussein's weapons programs, no matter how long it takes.

You mean you don't know, Dubya? What the hack happened to your list, with 25,000 liters of anthrax spores plus a whole bunch of other stuff?

Link

	22-06-2003 21:18									#2
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isn't it really a bit late in the day to start (well ok not start for UR, but still...) whining about the iraq war now.

	22-06-2003 21:20									#3
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yet more anti-US bashing.

"So he's going to spin some new lies to cover his old lies?"

No, he's explaining a possible reason why weapons haven't yet been found.

"The question is, how much?"

How much what?

"You mean you don't know, Dubya? What the hack happened to your list, with 25,000 liters of anthrax spores plus a whole bunch of other stuff?"

If I expertly hid something like that in Western Europe somewhere, reckon you could find it in under two months?

	22-06-2003 21:33									#4
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quote: If I expertly hid something like that in Western Europe somewhere, reckon you could find it in under two months?

Not personally, but given the resources of the US military and the free run of the region, sure.

	22-06-2003 21:41									#5
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Why?

	22-06-2003 21:48									#6
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I'm kind of curious why UR is taking a position to the left of Blix. If your going to ***** abotu the Iraq war, WMD is the least relevent point to attack.

	22-06-2003 21:56									#7
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It is said that it took 6 months after the VE day to confirm Hitler's death. Don't know if that is true, or it is an embellishment.

Re the WOMD, we just don't know. When you don't know, it's smart to be silent on the subject. Bush shouldn't talk about it until there is something more definitive.

	22-06-2003 21:57									#8
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quote: And in the regime's final days, documents and suspected weapons sites were looted and burned.

Given the utter chaos in Iraq, I find it difficult to believe this. Saddam was able to completely conceal weapons (or weapons 'programs'), but the Iraqi army collapsed with barely a whimper?

Not that gases and germs are particularly effective weapons, of course.

	22-06-2003 22:03									#9
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Sandman: Modern dictatorships have been known to have secret parrallel governments, governments within governments, and multiple weapons programs doing the exact same thing. Saddam had at least three independent governments answerable directly to him, IIRC. He was quite paranoid.

It seems quite possible to me that one of those governments functioned effectively until the end (or through the end). Whether another WMD program was part of that government is anybody's guess. It would not surprise me at all if the participants in one of the weapons programs (even highly placed) are telling the God's honest truth that they destroyed WMD in 91 or 94 or whenever, but that there were other programs running right until the end of the regime.

	22-06-2003 22:08									#10
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Bush shouldn't talk...

At all. Now we're talking. Imagine how many fewer rants there would be here and elsewhere if someone less.... moronic spoke for the President.

Everyone wins then.

I just love hearing the excuses change week after week. Who exactly is supposed to believe all of them?

	22-06-2003 22:10									#11
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Imagine how many fewer rants there would be here and elsewhere if someone less.... moronic spoke for the President.

He's not moronic at all. Neither are his lackeys. That's why I'm surprised that they're talking about it, since it just brings up the fact that they don't know the facts yet.

	22-06-2003 22:13									#12
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nad I thought this thread was about that swf of a fake GWB speech...

	22-06-2003 22:29									#13
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'm kind of curious why UR is taking a position to the left of Blix. If your going to ***** abotu the Iraq war, WMD is the least relevent point to attack.

Whereas if you're going to ***** about WMD, WMD would be a good place to start.

But since UR never even mentioned the war, I think his comments at least deserve a better dismissal than that.

	22-06-2003 22:43									#14
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Sandman: Modern dictatorships have been known to have secret parrallel governments, governments within governments, and multiple weapons programs doing the exact same thing. Saddam had at least three independent governments answerable directly to him, IIRC. He was quite paranoid. It seems quite possible to me that one of those governments functioned effectively until the end (or through the end). Whether another WMD program was part of that government is anybody's guess. It would not surprise me at all if the participants in one of the weapons programs (even highly placed) are telling the God's honest truth that they destroyed WMD in 91 or 94 or whenever, but that there were other programs running right until the end of the regime.

Even if a shadow government continued to produce weapons, how was it able to conceal them so effectively? Not one drop of nerve agent or anthrax has been found so far. Furthermore, the inefficiencies created by having multiple weapons programs hidden from each other, particularly in a country with limited access to expertise and materials, make it unlikely in my view.

Whilst Saddam has also not been found, members of his government have. If not one senior member of Saddam's government had been found, that would be extraordinary. Since no weapons have been found, the most likely conclusion is that they don't exist.

	22-06-2003 22:50									#15
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Silly Bodd's... you should know by now this isn't US-bashing. It's Bush-bashing. Bush doesn't represent the ideals of America: freedom, democracy, equal opprotunity and justice for all...

America is great, it's too bad we've been hijacked by an evil 4sshole.

	22-06-2003 22:59									#16
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Furthermore, the inefficiencies created by having multiple weapons programs hidden from each other, particularly in a country with limited access to expertise and materials, make it unlikely in my view.

About 1/3rd of the Iraqi economy was military-related. I guess I disagree with your view.

	22-06-2003 23:25									#17
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lololololololol

Bush made a mistake. If he was going to lie to the American people, he should have waited until his third or fourth year of his term to wage war. That way, he wouldnt have to worry about his credibility (ie. we wouldnt find out that he was lieing until he was reelected) I guess everyone is human.

quote: About 1/3rd of the Iraqi economy was military-related. I guess I disagree with your view.

So? This is just manipulation of statistics. A more accurate representation of how strong the Iraqi military is would be to look at gross expenditure (in dollars), compare their military versus ours in terms of morale, firepower, mobility and technology. And thats where you argument falls flat. Maybe they spent a large proporation, but if that proporation is small, which it is, then they arnt a threat.

	22-06-2003 23:41									#18
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well normally I'd be against UR on this one.

But I have to say I'm disappointed by the administrations actions these past 6 months. If weapons of mass destruction turned up, it would be a different story.

But I do believe they had weapons of mass destruction at one time, but probably got rid of most of them in the mid 90's. In fact I think they got rid of all their weapons of mass destruction, but just kept the laboratories and plans so if need be they can resume production at one point in the future.

	22-06-2003 23:46									#19
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'm kind of curious why UR is taking a position to the left of Blix. If your going to ***** abotu the Iraq war, WMD is the least relevent point to attack.

Scores of dead Brits and Americans, thousands of dead Iraqis. Chaos, looting, censorship of the people we supposedly freed.

The stated purpose was to find WMDs. Now where the hell are they? Or did Bush get thousands killed just to wag the dog on the economy?

I'd say the WMDs is a primary ****ing question.

	22-06-2003 23:52									#20
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even a war supporter like myself has to question where they are. Personally I don't give a **** about Iraq having WOMD. I was happy to see the regime gone either way.

But you have to admit that Bush based the war upon finding them. If they are not there, he either lied to us, or he had faulty intelligence. If there was faulty intelligence, some head have to roll- like the CIA director being fired for one.

And if Bush lied to us, he needs to be voted out.

	22-06-2003 23:55									#21
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Oh I should add one more thing in Bush's defense since someone mentioned us capturing top Iraqi officials.

Latest word has it none of them are talking. And since we can't torture them, and they know this, they aren't likely to talk. (not that I'm advocating torture here).

	22-06-2003 23:57									#22
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar The stated purpose was to find WMDs. Now where the hell are they?

So if they find the WMD, would that justify the war in your eyes? It wouldn't for me.

	23-06-2003 00:03									#23
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc If your going to ***** abotu the Iraq war, WMD is the least relevent point to attack.

What would you pick? The mess Bush and his cronies are creating there now?

	23-06-2003 00:06									#24
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finding the WOMD's wouldn't justify the war for everyone. But it would make Bush look like he wasn't lieing to to the american public.

I'm used to politicians lying, but that is about taxes and such. People are dying here, I expect a certain degree of honesty.

	23-06-2003 00:10									#25
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If they find WMDs, it still means they lied. They don't know **** about Iraq's weapons, but told us all kinds of specifics, and said they knew so much more.

The only alternative to lying is that they really believed their own propaganda.

	23-06-2003 00:12									#26
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Were they lying when they said, "Osterreich ist bunt!!"?

	23-06-2003 00:18									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident finding the WOMD's wouldn't justify the war for everyone. But it would make Bush look like he wasn't lieing to to the american public.

And not just the american public.

Internationally it was always said by representatives of the government that WMDs are the reason for War.

So he lied also to the Coalition of the willing, the UN and, to be more general, to the whole world.

	23-06-2003 00:18									#28
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"Were they lying when they said, "Osterreich ist bunt!!"?"

Of course not. They may even write you a new line if you kindly ask them.

	23-06-2003 01:22									#30
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However, it doesn't matter. Bush says "yes", the facts say "no", but guess who will be saying "yes" on the news?