Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > Big Brother Comes To Wal-mart
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Author
Thread   
Pages (3): [ 1   2   3   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
Uncle Sparky is offline Uncle Sparky
King
Winnipeg
Jan 1970
time: 23:29
Thumbs down  Old Post 22-06-2003 21:41
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
Big Brother Comes To Wal-mart Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

http://www.newswithviews.com/Mary/starrett14.htm

quote:
BIG BROTHER COMES TO WAL-MART
By Mary Starrett

NewsWithViews.com

Starting this week, the nation's largest discount
retailer will quietly begin selling tracking-chipped
products to clueless shoppers. The first volley in
their war against our privacy is set to start at their
Brockton, Massachusetts store.

Wal-Mart will put Radio Frequency I.D. sensors on
shelves stocked with RFID-tagged Gillette products,
but they'd rather you didn't know about it, because,
hey, you might not like it, and then you might make
noise and then they'd have a big PR mess on their
hands.

You might even stop buying Gillette products or, say,
refuse to shop at Wal-Mart.

These chips, researched at M.I.T.'s Auto-ID Center are
about the size of a grain of sand. Chipsters say the
technology will only be used to help retailers keep
track of inventory - like bar codes. But
privacy-loving consumers question the very concept of
a device that sends out radio waves to "readers" that
not only identify the article, but where and with whom
it's going.

The Big Brother implications of this thing need little
hyping to get your skin crawling.

Wal-Mart's putting the pressure on its top 100
suppliers to make sure their inventory is all chipped
by the end of next year.

But why start this in Brockton, Mass?

Could it be because the store's customers are
typically lower income minorities who'd be less likely
to be aware of the tracking devices, and even less
likely to make a fuss about them?

Their thinking? Let's foist it on folks who're too
concerned about paying the electric bill to be aware
of these types of issues.

Retailers are SUPPOSED to alert their customers to the
tracking chips and offer to "kill" the tags at the
checkout counter.

Don't count on it, because what you don't know won't
hurt you, right? And to PROVE those RFID tags won't be
"killed" at the cash register one of the ways they're
planning on convincing you, the shopper that these
tags are A-OK is by touting how "hassle-free" returns
will be. Huh? If the tags are supposedly turned off at
purchase, how can they be read after the item's
brought back to the store? Just one of the myriad lies
you'll be told about this technology.

Are we to expect that in addition to being asked the
"paper or plastic" question we'll get an option on
whether the RFID tags are left on or turned off? Not
only will consumers be witnessing the death throes of
privacy, but it's going to cost them. Currently, the
chips cost about 60 cents each. Add that to the cost
of each and every item that uses this Orwellian
technology. Gillette and Wal-Mart are only the
pioneers here, the stated plan is to affix each item
produced on the planet with RFID tags. Each pack of
gum, each roll of film, each bottle of Merlot.

So what's a freedom-loving shopper to do?

Fortunately for us, there's a really smart lady
finishing up a Ph.D. at Harvard. She started a group
that's bellowing out the urgency of fighting this
technology; her name is Katherine Albrecht and she's
founder of CASPIAN (Consumers Against Supermarket
Privacy Invasion And Numbering). Albrecht's CASPIAN
has proposed a piece of federal legislation called
"RFID RIGHT TO KNOW ACT OF 2003". It's a law that
would let consumers know which products had tracking
chips attached to them. In short, the proposed bill
would amend the Fair Packaging and Labeling Program by
adding language that requires manufacturers to state
(in a conspicuous location) that the package contains
a radio frequency identification tag that can transmit
unique identification information to a "reader" device
both before and AFTER it's purchased(!).

This is where you come in.

The bill needs a sponsor.

Maybe YOUR Congressional Representative would like to
go on record as having helped stop this assault on our
privacy. Forward this article to him/her and tell them
the entire text of the bill can been seen at
nocards.org.

Will you make it a point to email, call or fax your
representative today, before our Big Brother gets any
bigger? Do it NOW before the lobbyists and big money
special interests get to them and convince Congress
these RFID chips are consumer-friendly!

And while you're at it, why not tell the suits at
Wal-Mart and Gillette (and Home Depot, Proctor and
Gamble and Johnson & Johnson, too, by the way) that
from here on out you wouldn't go near their stores or
their products with a ten foot pole.

It works. Remember back a few months when I told you
how Italian clothing company Benetton had chipped
their Sisely line of clothes and was all set to roll
out the garments with RFID tracking devices? Well your
outrage and feedback caused them to put the scheme on
hold.

Let's make sure the behemoth Wal-Mart is similarly put
on notice. (By the way, IBM's planning to add RFID to
it's products; so if Wal-Mart manages to sneak this
past us, all bets are off and then every corporate
giant will be able to inflict this chilling,
tracking/monitoring horror on us.)

If RFID gets off the ground as planned, that would
make George Orwells' predictions off by just 20 years.


Sounds like fun, eh?

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:29
  Old Post 22-06-2003 21:45
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

The answer : don't shop at Wal-mart anymore. hIt them where it hurt : at the wallet.

FrustratedPoet is offline FrustratedPoet
Emperor
All Glory To The Hypnotoad!
Mar 2002
time: 05:29
  Old Post 22-06-2003 22:10 Visit FrustratedPoet's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote:
Sounds like fun, eh?


Doesn't sounds any worse than the "loyalty cards" major chain stores use to get detailed demographic and purchasing information on consumers.

What's the worst they could find out with this tracking system? Your address?

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:29
  Old Post 22-06-2003 22:24 Visit DanS's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This is just an ad for Albrecht. I'll form my own opinions about the technology, thanks.

The Templar is offline The Templar
Prince
People's Republic of the East Village
Oct 2001
time: 00:29
  Old Post 22-06-2003 22:34
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I already avoid WalMart like the plague (not that I have the opportunity to shop there since I moved to the East Village).

They are:

(1) Big time union busters.
(2) Sexual discriminators with a "macho" management structure.
(3) Force people to work off the clock
(4) Destroy small businesses and wreck economies in small towns.

If that isn't enough reason not to shop there on purely ethical grounds, having your privacy raped probably isn't going to stop you either.

"Sure they have tracking devices and **** over their labor force, but I just saved $5 on a DVD player!"

Sprayber is offline Sprayber

Emperor
Dixie
Oct 2000
time: 23:29
  Old Post 22-06-2003 22:43
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton

quote:
Originally posted by The Templar
(1) Big time union busters.
(2) Sexual discriminators with a "macho" management structure.
(3) Force people to work off the clock
(4) Destroy small businesses and wreck economies in small towns.


Have you ever worked there? I can say that I have and they are no worse than any other chain to work for. Point number 2 is just plain ingnorant because I dealt with the walmart management structure and trust me when I say there are plenty of women there giving out orders. Don't believe everything you hear.


BTW. I didn't even like it there but you describe is a gulag system or something.

Velociryx is offline Velociryx
Moderator
of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:29
  Old Post 22-06-2003 22:44 Visit Velociryx's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Far worse than that, I fear, Master Stoo.

Consdier:

If a tracking device goes into everything made (except for stuff on the black market, obviously), then they could begin building a profile on you.

Worse, they could begin quietly molding society to see certain activities (as expressed by purchasing patterns) as subversive, corruptive, or traitorous.

Let's say some politician gets his panties in a wad about porn, and passes a law making it illegal to own, period.

How easy would it be to look up everybody who has (or has ever had) a subscription to Playboy?

Bad news, this move.

-=Vel=-

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:29
  Old Post 22-06-2003 22:48
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

walmart is crap... this doesn't really concern me though, I hated that white-trash magnet store way before

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

Donate to the Red Cross
The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:29
  Old Post 22-06-2003 22:54
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote:
Originally posted by FrustratedPoet
quote:
Sounds like fun, eh?


Doesn't sounds any worse than the "loyalty cards" major chain stores use to get detailed demographic and purchasing information on consumers.

What's the worst they could find out with this tracking system? Your address?


The thing is "loyalty cards" are completely voluntary, but tracking bug is not. You don't have the option to opt out.

I remain optimistic though, as a counter device will be made to detect these bugs.

FrustratedPoet is offline FrustratedPoet
Emperor
All Glory To The Hypnotoad!
Mar 2002
time: 05:29
  Old Post 22-06-2003 22:58 Visit FrustratedPoet's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Vel:

Fair point, but I would say that many of those things already exist. Whenever you buy something with your credit card, or visit a website, or make a phone call the information gets entered on some database somewhere.

quote:
Worse, they could begin quietly molding society to see certain activities (as expressed by purchasing patterns) as subversive, corruptive, or traitorous.


This doesn't happen already? It seems to me that governments, the media and advertisers are always trying to tell us what are Good Things and Bad Things to do.

quote:
How easy would it be to look up everybody who has (or has ever had) a subscription to Playboy?


erm ... I'm sure this is already possible. I assume that Playboy not only keep accurate records of all current subscribers, but lapsed subscribers too - that way they can bombard them with "Hey, why don't you renew your subscription to Playboy? - now with even bigger titties!" type junk mail.
If porn ever became illegal I'm sure the law enforcement services could happily lay their hands on these sources without the aid of fancy tagging devices.

FrustratedPoet is offline FrustratedPoet
Emperor
All Glory To The Hypnotoad!
Mar 2002
time: 05:29
  Old Post 22-06-2003 23:01 Visit FrustratedPoet's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
The thing is "loyalty cards" are completely voluntary, but tracking bug is not. You don't have the option to opt out.


You always have the option not to buy from a store that tags their products. Or to not vote for a government that makes such tagging compulsory.

quote:

I remain optimistic though, as a counter device will be made to detect these bugs.


That's true.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

Donate to the Red Cross
The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:29
  Old Post 22-06-2003 23:04
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote:
Originally posted by FrustratedPoet
Fair point, but I would say that many of those things already exist. Whenever you buy something with your credit card what you bought, or visit a website, or make a phone call the information gets entered on some database somewhere.


That's true, but I don't have to use credit cards, or break up my pattern with multiple cards (AmEx, Mastercard, Visa, and Discover). I can also reject cookies from websites, and use public phones to make calls.

Elok is offline Elok
Prince
Land of Ramen Dragons
Mar 2003
time: 00:29
  Old Post 22-06-2003 23:05
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Mmm-hmm. Let's not forget that bar codes will soon be planted in our foreheads and palms to Mark us for the Beast...

Let's think about what this is suggesting, okay? There are minute particles the size of a grain of sand. They are presumptively waterproof and securely attached, or they'd cave pretty quickly under regular wear and tear. Such devices would have to have batteries about *how* big to power them? Maybe a pinhead? And with all these size constraints they have to be able to broadcast a radio signal powerful enough to be read and tracked by....what? I don't think they could possibly get the range to tell a satellite. Are there going to be roving wal-mart unmarked tracker vans covering the country? And how precise a signal can you get? Are these things little sand-sized GPS devices?
These things will be mass-produced by the millions and placed in each package of certain wal-mart products. Say Gilette. Gilette makes all its products, regardless of destination, at a factory. Will there be guys in the Wal-mart stockroom frantically shoving sandgrainbots into every package? All at low, low Wal-Mart prices(TM)!!!
Even for a conspiracy theory this is downright silly.

Velociryx is offline Velociryx
Moderator
of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:29
  Old Post 22-06-2003 23:05 Visit Velociryx's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

Stoo: I quite agree...it happens already, and CAN already be done to a degree.

I'm just sayin' that we ought not make it any easier than it already is. The system proposed would allow macro-level tracking (eventually) of everything that every individual purchases.

That's....more information than I'm willing to give out (not that I'm doing anything illicit, I just don't see that it's any of thier business).

The credit card thing can be easily circumvented by operating with cash (which I do habitually....only rarely do I charge things....usually impulse buys online).

Not so with the tracking devices.



-=Vel=-

alva is offline alva
Emperor
Republic of Flanders
Sep 2001
time: 06:29
  Old Post 22-06-2003 23:11
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

quote:
I remain optimistic though, as a counter device will be made to detect these bugs.


Ad-aware 7 ?
I try to pay as much as I can with cash, never liked being put and classified in databases, never will.

The Templar is offline The Templar
Prince
People's Republic of the East Village
Oct 2001
time: 00:29
  Old Post 22-06-2003 23:21
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

quote:
Originally posted by Sprayber


Have you ever worked there? I can say that I have and they are no worse than any other chain to work for. Point number 2 is just plain ingnorant because I dealt with the walmart management structure and trust me when I say there are plenty of women there giving out orders. Don't believe everything you hear.


BTW. I didn't even like it there but you describe is a gulag system or something.


I have never worked at WalMart, but I did work at two grocery stores when I was a kid. One was unionized (Kroger), the other was not (Winn Dixie). The difference in employee dignity and pay scale and benefits (for full time workers) was readily apparent. Winn Dixie was very much like a gulag, Kroger was tolerable.

David Floyd is offline David Floyd
King
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
  Old Post 23-06-2003 00:03 Visit David Floyd's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#17 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I already refuse to shop at Walmart, except in an emergency, and even then, I'll only go to Walmarts in high income areas.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:29
  Old Post 23-06-2003 00:13 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#18 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

Wal-Mart hates us because of our freedom.

mrmitchell is offline mrmitchell
King

Donate to the Red Cross

Sep 2002
time: 23:29
  Old Post 23-06-2003 01:30
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#19 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

This is a bad move for Wal-Mart. I like them just fine (partially because they are cheap and they're the only local economy around here anyways ) but this crosses the line. No no, bad Wal-Mart!

quote:
What's the worst they could find out with this tracking system? Your address?


I don't care about my ****in address! Did you read that the article said these things cost sixty cents? I don't want to pay for $hit like that! I just want to buy my product and get lost!

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:29
  Old Post 23-06-2003 01:36 Visit Asher's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#20 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Whoever is worked up over this needs to get a reality check.

The tags are deactivated when you leave the store,

JohnT is offline JohnT

Emperor
Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:29
  Old Post 23-06-2003 01:45
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#21 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Here's a link to a factual article, as opposed to some fear-mongering opinion piece.

http://www.business2.com/articles/m...3,39278,00.html

Dayum! A 101 terabyte inventory/sales database?

Betcha they don't run that on Linux.

Last edited by JohnT on 23-06-2003 at 01:57

JohnT is offline JohnT

Emperor
Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:29
  Old Post 23-06-2003 01:46
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#22 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Ted, you win "The Most Bizarre and Inane" comment of the day award!

mrmitchell is offline mrmitchell
King

Donate to the Red Cross

Sep 2002
time: 23:29
  Old Post 23-06-2003 01:46
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#23 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote:
The tags are deactivated when you leave the store,

I always found that reading the article would be helpful.

quote:
Retailers are SUPPOSED to alert their customers to the
tracking chips and offer to "kill" the tags at the
checkout counter.

Don't count on it, because what you don't know won't
hurt you, right? And to PROVE those RFID tags won't be
"killed" at the cash register one of the ways they're
planning on convincing you, the shopper that these
tags are A-OK is by touting how "hassle-free" returns
will be. Huh? If the tags are supposedly turned off at
purchase, how can they be read after the item's
brought back to the store? Just one of the myriad lies
you'll be told about this technology.

Best case, the Wal-Mart employees won't know or won't care about the RFIDs and they will be out of range when you leave the store. Worst case, we will not be told of this at all. :spooky:

JohnT is offline JohnT

Emperor
Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:29
  Old Post 23-06-2003 01:52
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#24 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

Some other facts about Brockton MA and the surrounding county:

White: 89.0% (for the state as a whole 84.5%)
Percentage of adults with HS degrees: 91.3% (84.8%)
Median Household income: $63,432 ($50,502)
Percentage below poverty level 4.6% (9.3%)

Yup... sounds just like your typical "uneducated, poor, minority" hellhole to me.

JohnT is offline JohnT

Emperor
Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:29
  Old Post 23-06-2003 01:53
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#25 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

Given that the things have a range of ~5 feet, how do you think they are going track you home to get your address?

JohnT is offline JohnT

Emperor
Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:29
  Old Post 23-06-2003 01:54
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#26 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote:
Originally posted by mrmitchell

I always found that reading the article would be helpful.


"Opinion piece", not "article." The beginning of knowledge is the proper definition of terms, mrmitchell.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:29
  Old Post 23-06-2003 02:04
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#27 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

I think I've been to Walmart maybe once in the last year.

mrmitchell is offline mrmitchell
King

Donate to the Red Cross

Sep 2002
time: 23:29
  Old Post 23-06-2003 02:15
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#28 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Given that the things have a range of ~5 feet, how do you think they are going track you home to get your address?

I don't. Yet. Part of the fear in this, I'm assuming, is that one day a grain-sized tracker with a range of, say, a mile will be developed. And then so on. Plus, "slippery slope" applies.

quote:
"Opinion piece", not "article." The beginning of knowledge is the proper definition of terms, mrmitchell.

The author apparently brands it as "news with a view". I find all three terms acceptable, although the story did get out of hand toward the end.

darkgrendel is offline darkgrendel
King
Bite me! ..it's fun.
May 1999
time: 23:29
  Old Post 23-06-2003 02:22 Visit darkgrendel's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#29 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Oh. My. God.

This is about the most paranoid article I've ever read. Oh no! Walmart will be able, theoretically, to track what you buy there! As if they'd have the manpower to actually keep profiles on every person who ever shopped there (especially considering that a chunk of those people pay in cash, thus only revealing their identity by way of security cameras- and think how much time and energy would need to go into figuring out who bought what that way!). Moreover, even if they did keep tabs on every Walmart shopper in this way... how does this hurt you, exactly?

And as to the "slippery slope" idea- load of crap, says I. Walmart tracking people's purchases leads to total monitoring of every person at all times, 1984-style? Give me a break.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:29
  Old Post 23-06-2003 03:00
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#30 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
Wal-Mart hates us because of our freedom.



Most intelligent onr-liner on 'Poly in a long time

 
Pages (3): [ 1   2   3   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:29.
Apolyton Time is 00:29.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0737 seconds (92.62% PHP - 7.38% MySQL) with 31 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net