23-06-2003 06:41									#1
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Hey guys,

There has been a lot of discussion lately regarding atrocities and what our policy should be re: them. Plz post any thoughts here.

- Rokossovky

	23-06-2003 06:52									#2
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Sentimentalism is obsolete my friends! I say we use them, no holds barred, whenever necessary or convenient.

	23-06-2003 08:07									#3
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But when we use them, it needs to be used effectively and also to strike fear. But we have to be careful of alieniating allies.

	23-06-2003 08:46									#4
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We have to get them before they get us. We need to work out an atrocities policy with our allies before we do anything, though.

	23-06-2003 18:52									#5
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I used PB once when I first started playing SMAC and didn't really know what was going to happen. I watched in disbelief the entire enemy base in addition to an outpost base of my own became a giant crater. After that no matter what I did to get Lal, the only other faction left to sign a treaty, he condemned that I brutely murdered his people. I haven't used PB since. It seemed so brutal for a all powerful nation to murder innocent citizens of a small helpless nation.

I would much more prefer to use the PB as a strategic weapon rather than an actual weapon. However I don't oppose the use of it if it is the only option for us to ensure the viability of the Hive, or even to change our status in the power graph (if we are sure that it will change our status).

	23-06-2003 19:45									#6
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Atrocities? Never heard of that. I don´t know what the Marshal means...
Now get our troops some nerve gas pods and visit our foes! Be sure they get back before our planet busters melt the cities of our enemies to a thin layer at the bottom of a new Sea...

	23-06-2003 21:52									#7
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quote: Atrocities? Never heard of that. I don´t know what the Marshal means... Now get our troops some nerve gas pods and visit our foes! Be sure they get back before our planet busters melt the cities of our enemies to a thin layer at the bottom of a new Sea...

LOL! I like it!

- Rokossovky

	24-06-2003 06:00									#8
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For what it's worth I always build a PB as soon as I get the tech (treating it like an SP, and upgrading crawlers to rush it)

1. it's a great deterrent

2. you never have to prototype a weapon after you've built a PB, so it repays itself in "saved" minerals several times over

3. If you need to steal tech, etc, from a faction with the HSA, Planetbust the base with it, then no lost probes thereafter; or if you need to cut a faction down to size, look for the base with several SPs in it, and take it out - especially in PBEMs if a player has a SSC with the SC, ToE and NB. Can reduce them to 25% of their science production in one fell swoop

4. Unlike in single-player games, where every faction declares vendetta against you if you use one, in PBEMs it depends on the human players for that to happen (and if they are neighbors, and afraid, they won't. Or if they are allies, esp if you have pre-cleared it with them, they won't)

G.

	24-06-2003 06:52									#9
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Thanks Googliegod.

I think we should use different atrocities in different situations. We should treat each situation differently and also depending on WHICH faction we are dealing with (if any). If we 'Buster a Believer base, it would probably be no consequence. But if we PB'ed a CyCon base, you can bet they'll be out for blood. Here's what I think in a nutshell.

Nerve-Stapling-Since these are our people, we should staple them when necessary.

Gas Pods-We should save these for factions that deserve it and only for the most drastic situations. Say, an allied attack on another factions cities.

PB's-Build 'em, then use them only as a "finisher" or to majorly cripple an opposing faction. We should NOT give any Planet Buster tech to any faction, regardless of the relation (Pactmate).

My major concern is that some other comrades will want to commit any atrocity out there without thinking of the future consequences for our faction...

	24-06-2003 07:54									#10
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quote: My major concern is that some other comrades will want to commit any atrocity out there without thinking of the future consequences for our faction...

I hold the keys to the armoury, and I will make sure to consult you guys before i do anything like PB an enemy base, rest assured of that. As far as my opinion on the topic, nerve gas is great. It is especially good when used in a surprise attack against someone who doesn't have it (wimps too moral to eqiup their troops with it). We should equip all of our units with it, just be selective about when it is used. As for PB's, I agree that they should be built ASAP (DO NOT want to be the ones without them). However, they should be used mostly for deterrence, and very, VERY scarcely used on other factions. I.e. only if it will give us a MASSIVE advantage (and if their ability to retaliate is next to nothing, also we'd need allied consent). If we do manage to build up enough to actually decimate (or close to) another faction, we should save that little gem till near the end, so we can use to wipe out their defences and rush over their bases for a glorious military victory. *dream sequence*But, that is far in the future.
- Rokossovky

	24-06-2003 18:52									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Micha Atrocities? Never heard of that. I don´t know what the Marshal means...

Exactly!

Except that in my dictionary it is always standing closely with the other "bad bad no-no" (the PB).

	26-06-2003 11:00									#12
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Do human people exchange maps in PBEM?

	26-06-2003 11:45									#13
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I think perhaps Nerve Gas pods should only be installed in our elite units (like the Australian SAS, or US Green Berets for example) and we should wait until the time before we decide if we use them.

PBs - we could play a bit of Mutually Assured Destruction with the other factions cuz I bet they'll all be hoarding Planet Busters and they will expect us to. When it comes to actually using them I think PBs should be a last resort, or the good results from using them should outweigh the bad results.

Nerve stapling - I think we should avoid Nerve Stapling because if we use it too often it stops working. Of course, if counter revolutionaries are about to topple the party we should staple them into the ground, but I think we should try to avoid Nerve Stapling. Also, trade sanctions that happen as a result of nerve stapling can be bad.

Genetic Warfare - (We won't have to worry about this for a while) Again I think we should wait until the time and decide what to do

I think a general rule for atrocities should be to not be liberal with our being atrocious, for the benefits of committing the atrocity to be equal to or outweigh the negative repurcussions, and to wait until the possible need arises before a final decision is made (but we should get lots of PBs to scare everyone).

	26-06-2003 13:07									#14
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On another more ceremonial matter, I would like suggestions for the naming of units. The default names just aren't inspiring enough, something along the lines of Swords of Lenin as has been proposed for Planet Busters.

	26-06-2003 19:38									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Voltaire Swords of Lenin

	29-06-2003 01:45									#16
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Indulge in the roleplaying! The Hive has no moral scruples against using any tool to advance its glorious cause!

For the Hive any income we receive from trade will be small to negligible, until the mid-late game our entire trade revenue will probably be equal to the net energy surplus of one single mid-sized base. Why deny ourselves such a powerful tool, for such an insignificant gain?

I think Orbital Spaceflight should be a major research priority. Since the Hive cannot hope to achieve research parity with factions like the University or Cycon, we should jealously guard any advantage we gain in the realm of planet busters before the other factions develop any deterrent or defenses against them.

As for the other atrocities, they have their uses. Genetic Warfare is a powerful tool, allowing you to capture otherwise unassailable positions. It should be used to full advantage.

Nerve gas is incredibly powerful, and we should equip as many units with it as is practical. Out in the open it should be used liberally, but in base attacks we should try to avoid it.

Running Police State there shouldn’t be too many cases where nerve stapling would be necessary. One exception is recently captured bases. These should be nerve stapled as necessary to put down conquest drones and increase our defense against enemy probe actions. We should caution ourselves, however of relying on nerve stapling as a means of controlling drone problems; the diminishing returns will quickly make them ineffective

Obliteration of course should only be used on indefensible bases we either have no capacity( or intention) of recapturing or simply wish to deny our enemies. Also, keeping in mind that factions rear bases tend to be less well guarded than frontier bases, we could build Airdrop units specifically for the purpose of capturing and razing enemy bases and improvements. This is the most annoying thing in the world for builder types

Last edited by EZRhino on 29-06-2003 at 02:06

	29-06-2003 05:13									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Voltaire The default names just aren't inspiring enough,

I know The Crimson Guard has been used in another context, But I have started naming my 1-1tr-1's this in SP games - seems appropriate as the mindworms against which they are defending are sorta crimson colored (or at least the fungus is)

Silksteel armor lends itself to anything SS related

My Empath SAM Choppers are always either Hawks (Fission) or Falcons (Fusion) with the appropriate weapon (eg Missile hawk or Shard falcon, etc)

An early (ish) unit will likely be the Trance Plasma AAA defender (with a basic gun as weapon) perhaps the Revolutionary Guard?

'Course my drop troops were always St Pats, named after the Canadian Paratroop battallion, the St Patricias's Light Infantry - not at all appropriate for the Hive. My foil probes were Navy Seals and my mobile landprobes were CIA and my infantry probe defenders (some gamers call this unit Stumpy) were HomeGuard

Most not appropriate for The Hive, but I'm sure most of us have favorite names for frequently designed units

G.

	30-06-2003 05:50									#18
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Need a special Spetnaz unit, anyone have ideas what it will have?