23-06-2003 11:24									#1
	Vox Treaty Ratification Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The current state of the GS/Vox peace treaty (with the no-embargo provision removed) is as follows. Do we ratify it in its current state?

quote: Vox Controli-Gathering Storm Peace and Exodus agreement 1. Vox will have up to 18 turns, or until workers and settlers equaling its current population (with settlers counting as two pop points), whichever comes first, to evacuate. During that time, only workers and settlers will be produced unless Gathering Storm grants an exception for some special purpose. (This addresses both your fear of not having time to get enough out and our belief that it should be possible.), 2) When the designated term of evacuation is over, Vox will hand over all of their towns that are left on Estonia to GS. However, if Vox is incapable of loading all of its units on galleys by that time, they may leave units in one tile which will be agreed upon with GS until their galleys return for additional trips, granted that the immortals leave on the first trip. 3. When leaving, Vox promises not to raze any of it's worked tiles or remaining cities. (This includes abandoning cities by building settlers without GS's consent.) Vox also agrees not to sell any city improvements other than barracks and cultural improvements. (We don't want to spend huge amounts of gold or shields replacing improvements you can get just a handful of pocket change for selling.) 4. Vox will not allow any landings of forces other than GS on it's territory during the evacuation period. Any such forces already there will be asked to leave. (The original version referred to "hostile" forces, leaving an at least theoretically interesting loophole regarding forces claiming not to be hostile.), 5) Vox units will have free passage from S. Estonia to N. Estonia, in order to be disbanded in the cities for faster production. 6) Vox will disband all it's military units, as described in point 5, except : a) 12 defensive units - Pikemen or Spearmen. b) 4 offensive units - Immortals or Warriors. 7) 3 Voxian Catapults will pass to GS. 8. Up to 2 GS War Chariots may patrol Voxian territory during the evacuation. GS and Vox will attempt to minimize interference between GS's patrols and Vox's unit movements. Aside from warriors needed as MPs to address happiness problems, Vox will keep its units outside its cities to avoid ambiguities in verifying numbers and types of troops. (Verification would be worthless in a city showing a veteran pike, and not worth much more in a city showing a veteran spear or veteran or elite immortal. Also, concern about freedom of movement runs in both directions.) 9) Should Vox request GS's aid in the logistical aspect of the evacuation, such aid will be available. If that happens, Vox agrees to provide every detail that is required to create a scenario that is an exact duplication of North Estonia (fully identical, up to the amount of food and shields stored in each city). GS will help Vox come up with a turn-by-turn plan for the most effective and efficient evacuation possible. Should GS come up with a plan to liquify the population of North Estonia up to the point where each remaining city of Vox Controli is down to 1 population point or has been abandoned with a settler before Vox's designated evacuation period is over, Vox will follow that plan and evacuate North Estonia as soon as that plan is completely carried out (that is, sooner than the amount of turns initially agreed upon). 10) The method of evacuation : Vox's population will be transformed into workers. Vox will arrange to be given a town on another continent by a team of their choice, and will then gift their workers to that team, which, according to agreement with Vox, will return these workers to Vox's control. Therefore, galleys will only be necessary for the transportation of military units and there will be need for less galleys for Vox to evacuate themselves than if they evacuated their population via galleys as well. 11) Vox will not use pop rushing in any city without GS's approval. (Assuming you want to evacuate as much population as possible, pop rushing will not be in your best interest anyhow, and we prefer not to inherit unhappiness from additional pop rushing.) 12) Vox will give Gathering Storm Engineering when research on that is completed. (Were it not for your attack on us and all the gold we had to spend rushing troops to defend ourselves in the early stages, we would almost certainly have researched it ourselves long ago. We would therefore consider it grossly unfair for you to try to charge us for it, nor would your simply refusing to provide it to us at all remedy the problem. Receiving Engineering from you would also help make up for the huge loss we took on Feudalism, a loss which we believe to have been caused in part by other civs' reluctance to make deals that would provide us with gold to fight you with. We therefore regard getting Engineering from you as a matter of simple justice.) 13) If applicable, Vox will sell or trade its free industrial and modern techs to Gathering Storm on terms at least as favorable as those on which it provides them to any other nation. This includes giving Gathering Storm an equal opportunity to pay with techs or other commodities rather than gold. Commitments required in return for land in your new home will not count in this regard, however. (This protects against your making excessive demands for thoe techs as a way to exact revenge, just in case you might consider such a thing, while providing you with reasonable compensation. It is my hope, however, that our teams will be on good enough terms to make this provision mostly superfluous.) 14) If any former Voxian city transferred to GS attempts to flip back to Vox, Vox will reject the city when asked. Should a mistake be made in handling that, or if some quirk of MP prevents you from having an opportunity to reject the flip, Vox will immediately gift the city back to GS. (The purpose of this one is obvious.) 15) The city of Dissidentville will be an exception to the 18-turn evacuation period. Vox will either hand over or abandon Dissidentville (in the latter case, probably by disbanding with a settler sped up by disbanding units), at GS's choice, within the next seven turns. Should this provision undercut Vox's ability to evacuate population equivalent to its current population within 18 turns, GS will grant a suitable extension to compensate. (Dissidentville adds very little to your production capacity, and it's close enough to our core that we'd rather get a city there going sooner.) 16) It is understood by both sides that the spirit of this agreement that is important, not just its letter. Neither side will attempt to use technicalities to take unfair advantage of the other or to circumvent the intent of the agreement. (Self-evident, I hope.)

I pulled out the no-embargo provision because I think not pushing Vox on the matter will probably be worth more in terms of not having them embargo us than a piece of "paper" would be.

	23-06-2003 11:54									#2
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I don't see anything that will hurt GS in the long run - Let's sign the deal.

	23-06-2003 13:23									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'm in favour of this.

As a side note, you don't get the opportunity to accept or reject a culture flip in a PBEM game, at least under 1.14f

One of Sir Ralph's cities flipped to me in the GS1 PBEM and the first I knew of it was when he asked me to gift it back.

	23-06-2003 13:49									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

It's a good treaty. I don't think it will cause problems.

quote: One of Sir Ralph's cities flipped to me in the GS1 PBEM and the first I knew of it was when he asked me to gift it back.

The worst about this flipping was, that the city had a library rushbought, which would have been built that turn and was lost.

	23-06-2003 13:52									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

Voted yes. Looking forwards to having the island to ourselves for a while. Hope Vox are gone before the second Bob war kicks off.

	23-06-2003 14:33									#6
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Let there be peace in the land of the Storm...

btw


Shouldn't our abstain be: "pass me a chicken"?

	23-06-2003 15:12									#7
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Nah, chickens are too much of a symbol of war.

	23-06-2003 16:47									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yes. At some point StormHawk should comment publicly re encouragement and enforcement.

	23-06-2003 17:05									#9
	Got spare money?

quote: I pulled out the no-embargo provision because I think not pushing Vox on the matter will probably be worth more in terms of not having them embargo us than a piece of "paper" would be.

Perhaps we ask for an oral agreement on this, trying for a gentlemens agreement sort of speak.
Just a thought.
-
on the treaty, let's get it over with

	23-06-2003 20:35									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Voted Yes... however I still consider this a maximum period: we should be able to do better in terms of evacuation, so let's help Vox getting out of here asap.

Oh, and we the clock is ticking: if I count right, we're already in turn 3 of 18.

DeepO

	24-06-2003 00:14									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

With the vote currently 12-0 in favor of ratification, I'm declaring the treaty officially ratified and telling Vox the good news. That doesn't mean people can't keep voting to let us know what you think of it, but it's almost impossible to conceive of additional votes' changing the outcome.