23-06-2003 22:42									#1
	Secret Project Plan & Logic Loop Issues Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

My exams are done, which gives me more time to poll!!

We should plan our production plans a bit further ahead IMO, certainly when dealing with our first SP. That's why I have a few questions. The time limit to vote is three days, and you have one vote per question.

*****

1) Where should we construct our first Secret Project?

• Pi Square
  
• Apolyton Prime
  
• Logic Loop

All three options have good natural resources speaking in their advantage.
Pi Square has two nutrient squares, which can be forested to produce 3-2-1 a year.
Apolyton Prime has a monolith and a nutrient river square, which can be forested to produce 3-2-2.
Logic Loop has a monolith, a nutrient square (It will probably be farmed to produce 5-1-0 as a former is currently there.), and a mineral square (That can be farmed and mined to produce 2-5-0 - former-intensive work though.)

*****

2) When should we start our first SP production?

• Right now! (Or after the current scout patrol is finished in Poly Prime's case? If the SP base grows to size 3, we can always deal with the drones - emotional cyborgs - with a nerve staple. We can't do that more than once though without serious commerce consequences.)
  
• After a rec commons is constructed or hurried. (That should eliminate any drone worries when the SP base grows to size 3.)
  
• After a recycling tanks is constructed or hurried. (That extra mineral can give us a definitive edge over the competition. We first need the cash to rush it though.)
  
• When both a rec tanks and rec common are present in the SP base. (With all the aforementioned advantages and drawbacks as a result.)
  
• Write-in

*****

Since some people already said they want the SP to be built in Logic Loop, I decided to ask this question in the same poll, as the issues are most certainly related.

3) If Logic Loop has base size 2, what two squares do you want to be worker first?

• Nutrient square and monolith
  
• Nutrient square and mineral square
  
• Monolith and mineral square
  
• Write-in

Related with this issue is what we should produce in Logic Loop: SP, CP, former... Please use this thread to discuss this too. Preferably we should know the answer before we play our current turn, or we might loose minerals because of having to switch production next turn. And while we're at it, please use this thread to tell your preferred Pi Square & Poly Prime next production item as well.

Pics to help you make your vote:



And an important detail:

	24-06-2003 00:58									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I vote we don't build an SP. Let's concentrate on growth, and come to SPs soon IMHO. We need CPs and Formers now! However I voted Logic Loop, as it is the best place to build it IMHO. I think if we do, after Rec Commons, Rec Tanks and at least 1 former.

BTW: Mining and farming the mins at LL will produce 2/4/0. Mines only do 1 on rolling IIRC.

LL, go nuts and mins, and then monolith in a few turns when it's grown.

	24-06-2003 01:09									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: BTW: Mining and farming the mins at LL will produce 2/4/0. Mines only do 1 on rolling IIRC.

IIRC when you build a mine on a mineral bonus square, you get an extra mineral above the normal production. Thus building a mine on a rocky mineral square give 7 mins, on rolling 5 mins and on flat 4 mins.

	24-06-2003 05:10									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Actually, we currently get 3 from that square, as your pic shows. With a mine you get an extra one on rolling, and thus 4. With a mine of rocky you get an extra 3, and 0 on flat IIRC. Might be a % thing in part though, so it may be a mine of a mins special gets an extra 1, hence 5. However it may only be on rocky mins that it gets the extra. Have to see. I'll do a trial.

Last edited by Drogue on 24-06-2003 at 05:25

	24-06-2003 08:52									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

I ran a scenario test - it gets 5 mins with a mine and road.

However, with a farm I only got 1 nut, not 2, for a 1-5-0 yield

G.

	24-06-2003 17:49									#6
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quote: for a 1-5-0 yield

Odd. I would expect rainy (2) + farm (+1) + mine (-1) = 2.

Anyway, what should we build in Logic Loop right now? Currently everyone has voted for building our first SP there. We could start right now already, or we could first finish some other production items. If we continue with the CP though, I'd suggest we temporarily switch production from the nutrient square to the monolith. Because as things are going now, we will just reach size 3 when we shrink back to size 2. If we now work the monolith, we'll first shrink to size 1 before immediately growing back to size 2 due to already having filled two nutrient rows in the box. The advantage of switching to the monolith is that we won't waste a nutrient row and have some extra production and energy instead.

	24-06-2003 23:52									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Ah yes, the road adds 1, I forgot that

Maniac: Mines put it to being moist IIRC. Personally, I never mine non-rocky squares, and think that foresting is the best short term solution, as it is quick and gives us 1-4-2. Also I expect we would borehole it eventually, for a 0-8-6

	25-06-2003 01:46									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

On review, I hadn't made the tile rainy in my scenario test - so it does produce 2-5-0 with a farm, mine and road.

The road should add nothing ('cos the manual says it has no effect on a mine in rolling terrain), and at first I thought the extra mineral was 'cos it's a crater tile, (or at least it was, prior to the earthquake, and still registers as crater) but it definitely is 4 mins when I remove the road and 5 with it in place.

(You can check the effect of terrain improvements on a tile by left clicking on the small tile display box to the left of the faction strength display lists)

G.

	25-06-2003 03:34									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Oh well. Either way, I propose doing the less former intensive foresting until we get boreholes. I don't think it's worth the mine yet. Either that, or make the terrain rocky and get 7 from it, but that's a bit much IMHO. WhHat do others think?

	25-06-2003 10:12									#10
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Forest-it. Let's go for quantity over quality, and begin re-forming later, once our terraforming infrastructure has been established.

	25-06-2003 15:48									#11
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Then that is what we shall do The nuts is being farmed, as per orders and terraforming plan. To waste the only square where we can get over 2 nuts would be silly IMHO, and 5 is a big bonus to growth, especially if we want to build an SP, in which we need the monolith, mins and nuts being worked. Will give us 8 mins, which is quite handy, and an extra one if we are to farm solar the energy and work that, although we need a Rec Commons for that. To be honest, it will grow fast, and thus we will have drone riots without a RC. The quickest way to build an SP there is with building the RC first. Why have people voted to build it right now? There is no need, we will pick up either the WP, the VR or the HGP (or even the Command Nexus, so we can really attack everyone else ). All are very useful for the whole game, and there is no major rush. Even so, we can build it quickest growing to 3 or 4 and building a RC, as opposed to having to keep it at 2 so we don't riot.

	25-06-2003 17:59									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well I'd still vote to mine it, but currently I seem to be in a 2-to-1 minority. Aren't there more people who wish to vote in this poll, especially on the important issue when we should start our SP construction? In some other polls I've seen up to 6 voters.

quote: there is no major rush

I disagree. I've played enough PBEMs to know you need to plan long ahead and start early if you want one of the better early SPs: WP, HGP or VW.

	25-06-2003 18:12									#13
	Support Apolyton

I vote for mine it. The extra nut is very important IMHO, and providing me mine it first, it'll be a lovely square at 2-5-0.

That'd be a lovely SP production site

	26-06-2003 03:55									#14
	Tired of ads?

But it would take so much former time to mine it. WOuld you rather have it mined and farmed, or would you rather have both that and the energy special resource forested around it? If people wish, I will do, but currently it's 2 all, so we need someone to break the deadlock (or the person playing the turn has to use their initiative).

There is no hurry, as most other factions don't even have the techs needed yet. We will get one, and as I said, it is quicker building a rec commons first. We will have 4 in their by the time we finish the SP, but we will need 2 doctors then, and our production will be greatly reduced. In other words, if we want to build one, we need an RC first. We argue about that 1 nut on the min square, but that will make no difference if we don't have an RC to allow us to grow

	26-06-2003 08:33									#15
	Support Apolyton

But if we are going to, then we're going to have to move Social Psych up the research list, rather than going for some of the industrial techs.

	26-06-2003 18:00									#16
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Since we will trade for either Soc Psy or Ind Base with the Pirates, I think researching it won't be a problem. It is a pretty useful tech, and high up on the list in most games. It isn't such a detour is it? We need Rec Commons ASAP anyway, as we have bases that will soon have drone riots without them. Logic Loop is a prime example. With 3 citizens, it will riot. We don't want that, and we don't want to waste 1, and then probably 2 citizens as doctors, producing only with 2, to get an SP. Trying to build an SP only working 2 squares is futile IMHO. Get an RC, and then use all 3 or 4 citizens to build it.

	27-06-2003 02:26									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

MY 2116 has already been played, and a CP is still in production in Logic Loop, despite three people voting to start an SP right now . Or two at least - I voted "Right now!", but I would have prefered (sp?) building a former, thus not loosing valuable workers in the SP base Logic Loop, until (if?) we traded SocPsych with PEACE. Now IIRC 16 minerals are already accumulated, so we're kinda forced to finish that CP. Therefore I would again like to suggest we temporarily switch a worker from the nutrient square to the monolith until the CP is complete. We're wasting nutrients, minerals and energy currently! From a few posts back:

quote: If we continue with the CP though, I'd suggest we temporarily switch production from the nutrient square to the monolith. Because as things are going now, we will just reach size 3 when we shrink back to size 2. If we now work the monolith, we'll first shrink to size 1 before immediately growing back to size 2 due to already having filled two nutrient rows in the box. The advantage of switching to the monolith is that we won't waste a nutrient row and have some extra production and energy instead.

	27-06-2003 02:27									#18
	Increase Your PM Length

Btw, what to do in Logic Loop if we don't manage to trade SocPsych with the Pirates? Seeing the current negotiation problems, that might not be so unrealistic.

	27-06-2003 02:44									#19
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Maniac: I presumed the right now was takign into account that we were already quite a way through the CP, since you didn't give an option for building the CP first, only base facilities? Did you intend to include the option to continue building what we were and then change? Therefore we would need people to say if they wanted to waste minerals or finish the CP? I will change to monolith next time, but the last poll said unanimously to stay on nuts, so I thought that was safest.

If you want to go for an SP ASAP we can, but we will waste so much due to drone riots or doctors I can't understand why we would want to do it before a Rec Commons. I think we will get it from the Pirates, and if not, then we can either do the SP first and waste loads, or we can build something else in the meantime and research it ourselves.

	27-06-2003 02:50									#20
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quote: Maniac: I presumed the right now was takign into account that we were already quite a way through the CP, since you didn't give an option for building the CP first, only base facilities?

You're right. Bad poll phrasing of me. What I was thinking when I made up those options was with "Right now!" literally right now, switch production immediately. And with all of the other options I was thinking "In some indefinite future, when we have constructed one of those base facilities."

Anyway, currently my personal opinion is to wait until the Pirates trade us SocPsych, and then hurry or build a rec commons asap. But if they don't trade us SocPsych in a few turns, I was thinking about forgetting the rec commons and nervestapling Logic Loop when it reaches size 3.

	27-06-2003 02:53									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

Nervestapling? What effect does that have, other than drone suppression? If it's not too bad, I agree completely. That gives us two. One more and we have enough to do it

	27-06-2003 03:02									#22
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AFAIK the only effect the first time you nervestaple a base is ten turns of trade sanctions. Later on this is dramatic, but right now this means almost no sanction at all. We can use it only once though for good effect. The second time you nervestaple the same base, it's twenty turns of commerce sanctions and only five instead of ten turns nervestapled citizens. So then the cost becomes greater than the benefit IMHO. But the first time, ten turns with +- 7 mins a year will give us a good jump in SP production. By the time the nervestapling loses effect and we have to use a doctor, we'll probably already have crawlers to rush the SP.

	27-06-2003 03:19									#23
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

+7? Does it do all drones, or just one? I'm a little sceptical, especially since it is an atrocity, so won't others be nasty about it (like PEACE). We would have to poll it, and I wouldn't rely on it, but as a last resort. Or we could increase Psych Spending, if we get 4, we can solar the energy and use that.

	27-06-2003 03:24									#24
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I mean when we have 3 citizens we will probably be producing at least 7 mins a year, without terrain improvements. One mineral from the base site, 1 from the nutrient square, 2 from the monolith and at least 3 from the mineral square.
Nervestapling makes ALL drones (and talents) workers.