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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Cruddy
Amazing. You just can't see it, can you... so you resort to personal attacks when it's plain that people who like Macs will stick to them.
What's the matter Asher? You really don't get it that people don't have to go Wintel to have a successful, enjoyable computing experience? |
That's not what this thread is about. I don't give a crap if people buy Macs, I give a crap when Apple is sleazy with its advertising. I personally don't like them, I don't care if others do.
Now when are you going to clue in that this thread is about :
1) Hardware capabilities
2) Marketing bullshit
rather than Windows or MacOS is better?
The sooner, the better.
quote:
You put up a thread saying Apple are announcing a new machine - and then you go balls out to find every weakness in their argument.
Not even realising the weakness in your own - that P4's DON'T COMPETE WITH RUNNING MAC SOFTWARE!!!
Got it now? Or do I have to use a bigger point size? |
Hey genius -- are you telling me SPEC and Photoshop don't run on P4s?
That's NOT MY ARGUMENT. Do I need to use a bigger point size? If you'd care to pay attention, I'm interested in the technical capabilities of the chip and Apple's incessant bullshit about them. I don't care what programs they run, as I'll never use one, but as a geek it is my duty to keep up with technology because I find it fascinating, and I find it disgusting that Apple markets it the way they do.
You're being so stupid here because you're constantly trying some other argument and wonder why I ignore your previous posts.
I will reiterate it as you apparently have difficulty reading:
I don't care what people buy, I don't care what software the G5 runs.
Comprende?
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
OK - Did you actually read this? And did you know that Apple has responded to these accusations today?
But if you think this is such a good article then I point you toward the conclusion. You know, the conclusion, where he sums up his view. |
I agree with his view completely (aside from the "we should wait for independent sources") -- in fact I've expressed similar views here. You apparently skipped the post, it's the same one where I discussed how Apple's "response" to the accusations digs themselves deeper. Not only did they insist their bullshit was true, they added more lies to the mix which anyone can verify with google.
quote:
The last sentence expresses roughly what Cloud9 and I have been saying for most of the thread (as far as I can remember).
So either you are going to admit that this guy has it right (because you are putting him forward as an authority on the subject) in which case Cloud9 and I win the argument; or you admit that this guy doesn't know what he's talking about, in which case you are an idiot for putting him forward as an authority - and we win; or you didn't read it and you are being dishonest - and Cloud9 and I win the argument. |
Again, you pull this "you agree with the whole thing or you disagree with the whole thing or you admit you lie!"
Does that actually work in the Philosophy departments? If so, that's fascinating...
I don't believe you need an "independent" source to go over it, although it would be nice, but for whatever reason Apple refuses to allow independent sources to get their hands on it. I'll leave it to your superb logic skills to figure out why.
quote:
Whichever way it goes you are screwed. You really have to be more careful about what you link to. |
You have to actually think before posting. Really, Agathon. It's astounding.
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Cruddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
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That's NOT MY ARGUMENT. |
No. It's my argument. My argument being your argument is meaningless because it compares chalk and cheese.
I don't expect you'll be happy to have wasted so much time, but effectively that is what you have done.
See you in 3 months.
Asher----> Ignore
Agathon ----> Ignore
EDIT: Nah... not when I'm having so much fun!
Last edited by Cruddy on 26-06-2003 at 06:09
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Cruddy
Leave me out of that "We". Asher is OK but somewhat narrow-viewed. Give him a few years for the damp to dry behind his ears. |
Let's face facts -- Apple, without a doubt, bullshitted and skewed their benchmarks.
Agathon and Drake are ignoring that fact, plugging their ears.
And you are on some absolutely irrelevant discussion and trying to "get me into a corner" over something I'm not even talking about.
The problem is not me and my "narrow-view", the problem is Apple's been publically busted in cheating, the Mac users are willfully remaining ignorant about it, and you don't have a clue what's going on in this thread.
My views are wide open -- I think BSD is the best server OS, I think Alpha is the best CPU dsign ever. I also think Windows is the best desktop OS (because, well, it is) and Intel makes the best desktop chips (because, well, they do).
You call me narrow-minded because I hold opinions on these things, and I don't change them because a clueless philosophy professor and some brain-fried druggie from England present rhetoric and red herrings. My opinions haven't changed because no one has presented any competent counter arguments.
And that's your problem, not mine.
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Cruddy
he reason you are not talking about it and TOTALLY IGNORED IT until I prodded you is because it totally undermines your whole argument.  |
It certainly does no such thing -- my argument totally ignores the fact that people will buy what they want, because it's not relevant.
I'm a tech-geek and this is a tech-geek discussion. It's not an economics and personal choice discussion.
I take issue with Apple's marketing, not with people's choice to buy Macs.
Join the club, read the thread next time.
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This totally sane ex-druggie has forgotten more theory than you'll ever know.
Try to adapt to the fact that some people have stood where you are know about the same time you were being potty trained. |
Ah yes, the good old "I'm closer to death than you, ergo I know more".
Computers are an interesting exception, you know. Old people tend to know less.
Particularly when they wasted their braincells on drugs in their youth and can't even follow a debate properly.
Speaking of which, that ignore list thingy is pretty hard to operate, isn't it, Handy?
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Cruddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
...
Speaking of which, that ignore list thingy is pretty hard to operate, isn't it, Handy? |
Your dynamic refresh isn't working too well chap. View the edits.
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Cruddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
It certainly does no such thing -- my argument totally ignores the fact that people will buy what they want, because it's not relevant.
I'm a tech-geek and this is a tech-geek discussion. It's not an economics and personal choice discussion.
I take issue with Apple's marketing, not with people's choice to buy Macs.
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Ignoring the fact that a lot of people have heavy investments in their software isn't a very clever thing to do. Most people are careful where their money goes, and most will certainly not consider buying a new system if it means a complete rebuild of their software suite.
I'm sure you would go out and buy a G5 if it had the performance of an Alpha but most of us aren't that narrow viewed - or so unworried about software becoming obsolete.
What's the deal here Asher? Do you pirate? DON'T answer that question... but if you do, how does that fit with your given profession as programmer?
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Ah yes, the good old "I'm closer to death than you, ergo I know more".
Computers are an interesting exception, you know. Old people tend to know less.
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There is no substitute for experience. How many programming management jobs have YOU been offered lately?
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Particularly when they wasted their braincells on drugs in their youth and can't even follow a debate properly.
Speaking of which, that ignore list thingy is pretty hard to operate, isn't it, Handy? |
Who was following the debate? The smart money knew it was a bogus Asher rant anyway.
As for the ignore button, in case you haven't bothered refreshing the page, I changed my mind.
The old brain cells aren't so picked that I can do that. How about you?
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Cruddy
Ignoring the fact that a lot of people have heavy investments in their software isn't a very clever thing to do. Most people are careful where their money goes, and most will certainly not consider buying a new system if it means a complete rebuild of their software suite. |
People people people people people people...
You still don't understand, do you? This argument isn't about people. At all. And I don't want to make it into one, because there's no grounds for any arguments. People use what they want to use, end of story.
I'm not arguing against it, so stop acting like I am. People can buy whatever the hell they want for whatever reasons they want.
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I'm sure you would go out and buy a G5 if it had the performance of an Alpha but most of us aren't that narrow viewed - or so unworried about software becoming obsolete. |
Again, you and your people/money...
quote:
What's the deal here Asher? Do you pirate? DON'T answer that question... but if you do, how does that fit with your given profession as programmer?
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Well that's interesting. "Do you pirate? Don't answer that question, but IF the answer is yes, tell me this..."
Kudos. 
quote:
There is no substitute for experience. How many programming management jobs have YOU been offered lately? |
Hmm. I'm thinking really hard here, but I'm questioning the relevance of this whole thing? Why're you bringing it up?
Why is it that every old person instantly brings up age the second they look like an idiot? Almost like the "you'll understand when you're older."
You brought up an irrelevant argument, assumed I disagreed with it, and hammered it to death over and over even after I told you my opinion on it.
If you've got a programming management job, that's pretty impressive for someone with your "skills".
quote:
Who was following the debate? The smart money knew it was a bogus Asher rant anyway. |
What was a bogus Asher rant?
You haven't even addressed my rant! All you've done is argue incessantly about something I won't argue with you about. It's amazing!
quote:
As for the ignore button, in case you haven't bothered refreshing the page, I changed my mind.
The old brain cells aren't so picked that I can do that. How about you? |
Well, in the future you should realize I don't go re-reading everyone's posts every time.
Be a good boy a post a new post if you're saying something new, okay? Just a common sense thing, especially when the thread is going so fast.
I do find it interesting you decided to ignore me, then not to.
----
As a side note, let's hold an Apolyton programming championship. We'll get a judge, like MtG, to give a problem out at a certain time. Then we'll see who can give the best solution soonest.
You & me & whoever else wants to join.
We'll see who's good.
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Cruddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
What does professionalism have to do with anything?
I'm not a professional, I'm a university student who knows how to program. That's what they pay me to do.
Computers are my b*tch. |
Well don't blame me. It's got "Programmer" next to occupation, so how was I to know you were still studying.
I take back what I said about potty training.
More likely you were still a twinkle in your Dad's eye at the time.
And you are right about one thing - certainly most of the stuff isn't relevent TODAY - but that doesn't mean it won't be relevent TOMORROW.
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Cruddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
People people people people people people...
You still don't understand, do you? This argument isn't about people. At all. And I don't want to make it into one, because there's no grounds for any arguments. People use what they want to use, end of story.
I'm not arguing against it, so stop acting like I am. People can buy whatever the hell they want for whatever reasons they want.
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The argument was about whether the G5 was worth $1,999-$2,999 for people. You said it wasn't, and gave reasons. I said it was, and gave one pretty damn good reason.
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Well that's interesting. "Do you pirate? Don't answer that question, but IF the answer is yes, tell me this..."
Kudos.
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Asher, all questions after the first where rhetorical. I wanted you to THINK, and not react. When I say don't asnwer I meant just that.
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Hmm. I'm thinking really hard here, but I'm questioning the relevance of this whole thing? Why're you bringing it up?
Why is it that every old person instantly brings up age the second they look like an idiot? Almost like the "you'll understand when you're older."
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Because there is a common misconception among teenagers that when you become an adult, you are finished with learning.
The day I stop learning new stuff, shoot me. I'm already dead.
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
You brought up an irrelevant argument, assumed I disagreed with it, and hammered it to death over and over even after I told you my opinion on it.
If you've got a programming management job, that's pretty impressive for someone with your "skills".
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I don't have such a job. But yes, I have the honour of being offered such. The reasons I chose not to take it are my own and I will not discuss the matter further.
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
What was a bogus Asher rant?
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This thread.
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
You haven't even addressed my rant! All you've done is argue incessantly about something I won't argue with you about. It's amazing!
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Of course not. It was bogus.
Just comparing hardware specs across platforms is meaningless. Comparing what each system offers in terms of running WHICH software on WHICH operating system is not.
I congratulate you on an excellent technical thread. But any thread about a new machine that ignores the consumer it is aimed at doesn't really cover any meaning.
I would be lying if I said I had never made the same mistake, because I have.
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
I do find it interesting you decided to ignore me, then not to.
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Ah, the vagaries of Internet on dial up. Mostly I was hoping the thread would die, but Agathon kept it up. I was also giving you some time to think about the question and see if at any point you addressed the issue.
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
As a side note, let's hold an Apolyton programming championship. We'll get a judge, like MtG, to give a problem out at a certain time. Then we'll see who can give the best solution soonest.
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Sure, so long as the language is Motorola assembler. You pick which MC processor, is that fair?
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Cruddy
The argument was about whether the G5 was worth $1,999-$2,999 for people. |
This is news to me!
Precisely what gave you the impression that was the argument? Particularly when I've said no less than a half dozen times in the past two hours that I'm strictly arguing about Apple's marketing?
quote:
Asher, all questions after the first where rhetorical. I wanted you to THINK, and not react. When I say don't asnwer I meant just that. |
And another attempt of yours to be profound fails miserably. 
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Because there is a common misconception among teenagers that when you become an adult, you are finished with learning.
The day I stop learning new stuff, shoot me. I'm already dead. |
Next up you can learn how to figure out what a debate is about.
If this thread was a bogus rant, how come Apple's misdeeds are absolutely real and proven? Hmm?
quote:
Of course not. It was bogus.
Just comparing hardware specs across platforms is meaningless. Comparing what each system offers in terms of running WHICH software on WHICH operating system is not.
I congratulate you on an excellent technical thread. But any thread about a new machine that ignores the consumer it is aimed at doesn't really cover any meaning.
I would be lying if I said I had never made the same mistake, because I have. |
Well, you and I have different priorities. You may think it's prudent to have a thread where everyone can go "People should buy what they want!" "Yup!" "I agree." "Good Call." etc.
I think that's a bit boring.
My thread is about Apple's bullshit marketing. If you don't want to participate in it, a handy tip to keep in mind for the future would be to not post in it. Do not come and post in it with irrelevant arguments and red herrings with a condescending "I'm nearly impotent, listen to me before I die!" tone.
quote:
Ah, the vagaries of Internet on dial up. Mostly I was hoping the thread would die, but Agathon kept it up. I was also giving you some time to think about the question and see if at any point you addressed the issue. |
I actually laughed (really) when I read your question. "He can't be serious?" I pondered...
Sadly you were. 
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Sure, so long as the language is Motorola assembler. You pick which MC processor, is that fair? |
Motorola assembler?
Sucks to be you. 
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Cruddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
This is news to me!
Precisely what gave you the impression that was the argument? Particularly when I've said no less than a half dozen times in the past two hours that I'm strictly arguing about Apple's marketing?
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Because if it is worth $1,999-$2,999 people will buy it.
If it isn't they won't.
Life really can be that simple.
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
And another attempt of yours to be profound fails miserably.
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At that stage I thought you might be capable of giving an answer. Now it seems I was wrong in thinking that you might be able to be polite, or to see things from a Mac owners perspective, or in any way project your perspective beyond your horizons to include other people's thoughts and ideas.
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Next up you can learn how to figure out what a debate is about.
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A debate is a rational discussion.
Dismissing someone as irrational for fielding a valid point is a sign of a weak debator.
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
If this thread was a bogus rant, how come Apple's misdeeds are absolutely real and proven? Hmm?
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They will only be so when machines are out and testable. At the moment your thread lies in the realm of vapourware discussion.
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Well, you and I have different priorities. You may think it's prudent to have a thread where everyone can go "People should buy what they want!" "Yup!" "I agree." "Good Call." etc.
I think that's a bit boring.
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Is the only pleasure you get from pi55ing on other people? It's certainly one of your pleasures, as anyone following this thread will have quickly realised.
Any discussion of hardware without recourse to the software that runs on it is bullshit. You weren't prepared to go there. Maybe it's about time you got a boot up the backside, metaphorically speaking.
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
My thread is about Apple's bullshit marketing. If you don't want to participate in it, a handy tip to keep in mind for the future would be to not post in it.
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Your headline reads "Apple launches the PowerMac G5". If the thread isn't about the title then maybe you should take a writing course.
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Do not come and post in it with irrelevant arguments and red herrings with a condescending "I'm nearly impotent, listen to me before I die!" tone.
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I'll post anywhere I damn well please. If you don't like it, kiss it.
And don't worry Asher, I've got plenty years before I kick the bucket to pick holes in your Tech heavy/real world empty threads. I'm really looking forward to it.
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
I actually laughed (really) when I read your question. "He can't be serious?" I pondered...
Sadly you were.
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That's what emoticons are for. If I didn't want an answer I would have said so.
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Motorola assembler?
Sucks to be you. |
"Chicken. Fight like playing Robot" (Berzerk).
OK then, how about Intel Assembler? You pick the processor.
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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Again, you pull this "you agree with the whole thing or you disagree with the whole thing or you admit you lie!" |
This counts when you are posting something as an authority. That's what you did. You can't offer something as evidence for your view when they disagree with you without additional reasons. In this case you didn't, you just said roughly "here's someone who shows you are wrong".
If you want to use them as evidence without relying on them as an authority, you need to come up with your own independent arguments, which you didn't do.
Let me give you an example. If I were to say, "look at this article on Albertan separatism, this guy is a knowledgeable source, he shows that Albertan separatism is unconstitutional". You read it and the guy gives several arguments against separation.
Then you read it to the end and the conclusion says, "Albertan separatism may be unconstitutional, given what I have said, but further investigation needs to be done".
If I said to you, "look this guy shows that you are wrong, he's an authority, separatism is unconstitutional", you would be entirely justified in pouring scorn on me, because I've offered in support of my view an authority who disagrees with me without providing additional commentary on why his conclusion doesn't follow from the premises. This is basic first year logic.
That's what you've done - you endorsed a link to someone that disagrees with your extreme take on the matter, without providing any of the (required) supplementary argument. It's quite simple, although you don't seem to get it since you've done it three times during arguments with me now.
quote:
Does that actually work in the Philosophy departments? If so, that's fascinating... |
Yes it does - its called refraining from misleading quotations and misrepresentation. If I were to do this in a piece of academic work I would fail.
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Mr. Nice Guy
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"I'm gonna speak softly, but carry a BIG STICK!!!"
Mar 2002
time: 23:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
I most certainly am not clueless. I know what I'm talking about here, it's the Apple dimwits in this thread who can't do anything to support a case and end up changing their arguments. First we're blaming them not using dual CPUs in one of the benchmarks (duh! It didn't support it), then you ignore the fact that Apple rigged the PCs to perform spectaularly crappy, then you insist we don't know what the PC CPUs are going to be like in a few months, then Agathon says he thinks the "fastest CPU" comment is silly anyway.
You're both clueless. Not only about computers in general, but consistency and debate tactics. |
Apple rigged the PCs to perform spectactularly crappy? You do assume too much. You're basing this on Apple's past. Sad.
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The G5 is the PowerPC 970.
You didn't figure that one out yet? |
Don't give me a hard time Asher. You know what I mean. And if you pretend you don't, then you truly are a troll. 
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The official SPEC benchmarks are, for right now, dual 1.8GHz G5s/PowerPC 970s. Since 2GHz is ~10% faster, the SPEC benchmarks can only be ~10% higher, which still places it well under a P4 3.0GHz and 3.2GHz.
Get it? |
I'm going to refuse to argue any more about this one until I see the official SPEC benchmarks on the PowerMac G5 DP 2Hz.
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I'm the one providing facts, fair benchmarks, and common sense to this debate. You and Agathon are supplying the deferrals, smoke, and mirrors. |
And you say Agathon and I's debate tactics are bad? Right back at ya! 
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Cruddy
Because if it is worth $1,999-$2,999 people will buy it.
If it isn't they won't.
Life really can be that simple. |
Are you sure this isn't an act or something?
I don't disagree with this at all, which is why I'm not arguing about it with you. I am really blown away why you keep arguing about it like I disagree!
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At that stage I thought you might be capable of giving an answer. Now it seems I was wrong in thinking that you might be able to be polite, or to see things from a Mac owners perspective, or in any way project your perspective beyond your horizons to include other people's thoughts and ideas. |
I'm not being polite because you're starting to annoy the hell out of me. I don't disagree with you, I make it as clear as I can, and you still whine about why I can't admit you're right.
I've said this literally about 6 times now: People will buy what they want. End of story.
Why must you keep this up?
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A debate is a rational discussion.
Dismissing someone as irrational for fielding a valid point is a sign of a weak debator. |
I'm dismissing you because I don't disagree with what you said.
I'm dismissing you because it's not what this thread is about
Wake up...
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They will only be so when machines are out and testable. At the moment your thread lies in the realm of vapourware discussion. |
Vapourware?
Official SPEC numbers are vapourware?
The thing's been demoed, details are well known and it has been tested. There's a reason Apple is milking the hype now and won't let independent parties touch the things, because performance will suddenly look very average...
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Is the only pleasure you get from pi55ing on other people? It's certainly one of your pleasures, as anyone following this thread will have quickly realised. |
It's not my only pleasures, but it certainly ranks way the hell up there!
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Any discussion of hardware without recourse to the software that runs on it is bullshit. You weren't prepared to go there. Maybe it's about time you got a boot up the backside, metaphorically speaking. |
A thread about hardware is a thread about hardware.
A thread about software is a thread about software.
A thread about hardware & software is a thread about hardware & software.
I realize they go hand in hand, but when you're arguing about how a company blatantly rigged a test to give misleading results, you only need to discuss software to the compiler level for the specific test you're talking about.
Which is what I've been doing.
Which you apparently still do not understand...
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Your headline reads "Apple launches the PowerMac G5". If the thread isn't about the title then maybe you should take a writing course. |
Isn't that what this thread's about?
Does the title say to you "No one should be able to buy Macs!", genius? Noooooooooooooooooooooooo.
It says that because that's what happened. I posted it as soon as I knew, and within minutes I'd already figured out that they bullshitted and explained where.
And somehow you assume this translates into "why should we let people buy Macs." 
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And don't worry Asher, I've got plenty years before I kick the bucket to pick holes in your Tech heavy/real world empty threads. I'm really looking forward to it. |
Thanks! I'm glad you finally understand that tech-heavy and real-world threads are different things. Now please appreciate what this is and take it for that, and not the other.
quote:
OK then, how about Intel Assembler? You pick the processor. |
How about SPARC?
Or how about C, C++, Java, etc?
I'm more interested in thought process and problem solving than technical skill with an assembler. Technical skill can come to anyone given enough time, elegant solutions not so much.
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Cruddy
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Rest deleted, no argument.
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Vapourware?
Official SPEC numbers are vapourware?
The thing's been demoed, details are well known and it has been tested. There's a reason Apple is milking the hype now and won't let independent parties touch the things, because performance will suddenly look very average...
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Any hardware or software product that is not avaiable to buy by the general public is vapourware.
If you can't buy it, it isn't ready yet.
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
It's not my only pleasures, but it certainly ranks way the hell up there!
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Then you can understand when other people pi55 on your arguments.
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
A thread about hardware is a thread about hardware.
A thread about software is a thread about software.
A thread about hardware & software is a thread about hardware & software.
I realize they go hand in hand, but when you're arguing about how a company blatantly rigged a test to give misleading results, you only need to discuss software to the compiler level for the specific test you're talking about.
Which is what I've been doing.
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I see. So you feel that by starting this thread, you can dictate what people post in it.
You should REALLY understand now why people might take pleasure from pi55ing on dictators.
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Thanks! I'm glad you finally understand that tech-heavy and real-world threads are different things. Now please appreciate what this is and take it for that, and not the other.
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No, again you misunderstand me. What I implied was that your arguments were tech heavy and totally ignored the needs of the real world ("real world empty").
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
How about SPARC?
Or how about C, C++, Java, etc?
I'm more interested in thought process and problem solving than technical skill with an assembler. Technical skill can come to anyone given enough time, elegant solutions not so much. |
Spot the lamer who is scared of talking to processors.
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26-06-2003 05:24
Why can't they program them to work on PC processors?
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