25-06-2003 00:07									#31
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How about making this a 400-level AU course? The 400 courses are "complementary", if that makes anyone feel any better. I'm sure there is a lot to learn with such a big map.

In the Big Planet AU, there was a lot of room on the home continent. I think the idea here is to make the oceans real obstacles, and is therefore will me a rather different experience.


Dominae

	25-06-2003 00:10									#32
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Sounds good to me. I haven't yet played a mostly ocean game, and 16 civs has always been the max for me. After AU208 I could use a course that's less masochistic, but this sounds kind of fun.

	25-06-2003 00:34									#33
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I understand that this will be mostly water, and 24 civs. But with such a huge map, what size islands are we talking about (the largest ones, I mean)? This would factor in as to which civ choice I would make.

	25-06-2003 01:10									#34
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For fun, I propose the allowable civs be the historically naval-oriented ones: England, Spain, Vikings, Carthaginians (more?). Hopefully not everyone would pick the Carthaginians (Industrious is like a drug!).


Dominae

	25-06-2003 01:13									#35
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What about Greece, they ruled the Agean for centuries. Plus, comercial would be a nice trait for such a large map.

	25-06-2003 01:18									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae For fun, I propose the allowable civs be the historically naval-oriented ones: England, Spain, Vikings, Carthaginians (more?). Hopefully not everyone would pick the Carthaginians (Industrious is like a drug!).

Sounds good. I've never played any of those but the Carthaginians. I'll try to restrain myself and not pick them again (must...hold...back. No...industrious)

	25-06-2003 01:29									#37
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Sorry, Dominae, but I can't imagine myself playing on such a monstrous map without Industrious. Doing without it is annoying enough on standard maps.

For me, Industrious isn't just about the (considerable) advantages in the game itself. It's also about cutting the number of workers I have to micromanage almost in half, because I rarely automate workers at all. The bigger the map, the more workers there are, and the more time per turn Industrious can save.

Nathan

	25-06-2003 01:34									#38
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Sorry, Dominae, but I can't imagine myself playing on such a monstrous map without Industrious. Doing without it is annoying enough on standard maps.

But you simply must admit that Industrious is an awesome trait...

I still think my idea could work: those who want Industrious would take Carthage (Commercial is pretty good too, since you're that much closer to Map Making), while those who want to roleplay more can take any of the other "naval" civs. The very thought of converting heathens overseas as the Spanish makes we want to play this scenario...


Dominae

	25-06-2003 01:40									#39
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I was thinking Spanish as well, but for a less roleplaying oriented reason. I don't see expansionist as too useful on a mostly water map, and both England and the Vikings are expansionist. If Greece is added to the list then I'd think about them too.

BTW, Industrious IS an awesome trait.

	25-06-2003 01:47									#40
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Expansionist gets Pottery right away, which is good considering that 1) you're likely to have few neighbors on your continent, 2) you're that much closer to Map Making.

For this reason, I think England is a top choice. It has a UU that comes just about the right time to boot!


Dominae

	25-06-2003 01:48									#41
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Just had a thought though I don't know if it's worth it...possibly mod sea travel to appear earlier in the game than astronomy. It would make it a little easier to contact other civs (depending on the starting location), though that's the reason I don't know if it's worth it or not. Waiting to contact other civs makes it more difficult for the human player.

	25-06-2003 01:54									#42
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Another thought, and this one to make the AI a little tougher, is to give all the AI civs a build-often for naval units. We as humans can conduct sea warfare, but the AI doesn't do it too well. Maybe a little extra boost would at least help them somewhat.

	25-06-2003 01:55									#43
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By the way, let me just state again that I have no preference either way on aspects of this scenario (since I'm not going to play). I'm just throwing ideas that could be fun.


Dominae

	25-06-2003 02:10									#44
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quote: Originally posted by burly What about Greece, they ruled the Agean for centuries. Plus, comercial would be a nice trait for such a large map.

True, the value of the commercial trait increases with the tiles-to-OCN ratio of the map. Under stock rules that ratio goes from 150 on a tiny map to 400 on a huge map. But if Nathan's OCN increase brings this ratio down, then the commercial trait might not be that great.

Archipelago maps have relatively high average distance corruption, but the commercial trait does not give any benefits there.

By the way, Greeks still rule the Aegean. That's not saying much though, as that sea not much larger than lake Michigan!

Looking forward to playing this one, although I'm not sure how many months it will take me to finish it!

	25-06-2003 02:15									#45
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Would you not expect that the 24 civs will mean a problem with finding luxs?
I also agree with Catt that the proposition of endlessly contacting civs and trying to trade is too painful for me.
I can not image how much more painful it would be with 24 civs.
I wish they would nuke the trading apsects a bit to make it so you are not rewarded for trying to trade all the time.
This is why I have no interest in OCC games.

	25-06-2003 02:19									#46
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Hopefully the map will be such that you will not meet all the civs at once. In other words, the islands should be far enough that Contacts with every civ cannot be obtained at least until Navigation/Magnetism. This should break the tedium of "micro-trading".

Personally I find micro-trading rather tedious even on Large maps...


Dominae

	25-06-2003 02:41									#47
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I'll definitely agree that Industrious is an awesome trait. Fewer workers => more settlers => more/bigger cities (assuming you want enough workers to keep up with growth). Fewer workers => less gold for worker upkeep. I could live without that in the interest of a more challenging game, but the idea of moving zillions of workers around a map far larger than a standard huge one does not appeal to me.

Also note that extremely high research costs on a map this size make expansionists' early access to Pottery a lot more potent than it would be otherwise. On a standard map, industrious civs can research Pottery as quickly as they can build a granary. On conventional huge maps, it doesn't slow them down too much. But in this game, I seriously doubt that even cost-2 techs can be researched in under 40 turns at the beginning. Expansionists will be the only civs guaranteed the ability to build granaries early, and getting ahead in the growth curve would tend to offset the disadvantage of having to build more workers.

I'm fine with the idea of having players choose from among (historical) maritime civs, as long as Carthage is among them.

	25-06-2003 02:48									#48
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quote: Originally posted by alexman True, the value of the commercial trait increases with the tiles-to-OCN ratio of the map. Under stock rules that ratio goes from 150 on a tiny map to 400 on a huge map.

But it takes much longer to kick in because you actually have to found or capture that many cities.

quote: But if Nathan's OCN increase brings this ratio down, then the commercial trait might not be that great.

An OCN increase with 24 civs? The AI will spend too much time expanding as it is. I wouldn't think it would be reasonable to make this ratio lower than a huge map.

	25-06-2003 03:16									#49
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I'd like to play with the Americans for this one. Industrious and Expansionnist is really a must. I know they aren't navy-oriented, but they would rock on this kind of map...

--Kon--

	25-06-2003 04:00									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Konquest02 I'd like to play with the Americans for this one. Industrious and Expansionnist is really a must. I know they aren't navy-oriented, but they would rock on this kind of map...

Actually, the U.S. has had the most powerful navy in the world through more than a quarter of its existence (~1943-present). So it is, arguably, a legitimate civ to include.

	25-06-2003 04:24									#51
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I'm also thinking in terms of having the person who sets up the game (ideally a volunteer who won't actually be playing) choose a relatively poor and isolated (although not terrible or completely isolated) starting position for the human player.

Would the Human player be placed on his own little "island" ?Or would he share it or be close enough to communicate but not on the same "island"?

	25-06-2003 04:45									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Expansionist gets Pottery right away, which is good considering that 1) you're likely to have few neighbors on your continent, 2) you're that much closer to Map Making. For this reason, I think England is a top choice. It has a UU that comes just about the right time to boot!

Hmm, the more I think about, the more I realize you're right Dominae (as usual ). I completely forgot that pottery is a prereq for map making. Pottery is usually one of my first tech researches, if not the first. So I always have it well before I think about researching map making.

The English might just be the best civ to play this scenario. (wow, never thought I'd hear myself say that. ). When this comes out I'll definitely have to put some thought into which civ I want to use.

	25-06-2003 05:15									#53
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quote: Originally posted by CorpusScorpius Would the Human player be placed on his own little "island" ?Or would he share it or be close enough to communicate but not on the same "island"?

I'd just as soon leave that a surprise. Indeed, my ideal would be if Dominae would work out some kind of random factor for what he picks so there won't be much way of guessing. Anything from sharing a land mass with another civ or two to needing galleys (either ours or someone else's) for first contact is fair game, but needing the Great Lighthouse or suicide galleys just to meet our nearest neighbors would be a bit much.

	25-06-2003 05:23									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Expansionist gets Pottery right away, which is good considering that 1) you're likely to have few neighbors on your continent, 2) you're that much closer to Map Making. Dominae

Really, with 24 civs, you think we would still have few neighbors? Not saying you are wrong, just asking.

	25-06-2003 05:32									#55
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I am not so sure I would want expansion trait. If you end up on a land mass alone, you will not get much out of it. You can get the land settle on your own and any huts will be yours as well. Pottery a bit sooner is a high price to pay for one of your two traits.
I guess it would come down to the size of the land mass and if you had company or not.

	25-06-2003 08:18									#56
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Normally the expansionist trait is my least used and least favorite trait because of it's limitations (i.e. once all the huts are popped it's qualities are essentially over). However with this much water and this large of a map, getting to map making (and the great lighthouse wonder) as soon as possible could be a big key to the game. You can meet your close neighbors, but you can also have a better chance to meet the ones farther away.

I do however think nbarclay is right that it shouldn't be necessary to have the lighthouse or suicide galleys to meet your nearest neighbors.

	25-06-2003 09:40									#57
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If I design the map, I plan to make it as random as possible, so no need to worry about "guessing" too much. Of course, I also plan to make it challenging past the first few thousand years, so there would be some tinkering done, too.

The Americans were indeed a very naval civ. I just did not want to include them as they seem drastically more powerful (to me) to the Spanish or Vikings (I could very well be wrong...). It would be boring if everyone picked the same civ. But, if we have two Industrious civs, that should allow some sort of variety.

How about:

Americans
Carthaginians
English
Greeks
Spanish
Vikings

4 Commercial, 3 Expansionist, 2 Industrious, 1 Religious, 1 Militaristic, 1 Scientific + 2 with a relatively important UU (Man'O-War and Berzerk).

Let me know, I'm itching to see how well a Very Huge map accomodates 24 civs.


Dominae

	25-06-2003 10:36									#58
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Just for a bit of flavor, I might point at that the Japanese were quite adept at dealing with the seas for most of their history. Just something to get us away from the all-Euro roots

	25-06-2003 11:15									#59
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Even if there aren't any neighbors on the home land mass, finding that fact out sooner would give expansionists a bit of an advantage in lining up their plans. (And on this big a map, even a relatively small land mass probably won't exactly be tiny.) That, coupled with better average results from huts due to the absence of barbs even if there isn't any competition racing to get to huts first, would give expansionists a bit more than just earlier granaries. I'm not saying that's necessarily worth more than the advantages of other traits, but it's nothing to sneeze at.

	25-06-2003 11:56									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae How about : Americans Carthaginians English Greeks Spanish Vikings Dominae

Don't forget the French (I might not even play them, for once ), but France had a big navy before a certain Nelson came along.

This will make 5 Commercial and 3 Industrious, and another civ with an UU during the Middle Ages.