24-06-2003 09:51									#1
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Would anyone be interested in a max-water, 250x250, 24-civ archipelago map game? I know a lot of people don't have the computing power to handle it, but such a game could be an interesting challenge for those who do. I'm thinking in terms of scaling the size-related factors up from a standard huge map (160x160) roughly in proportion to how big the map would be. I'm also thinking in terms of having the person who sets up the game (ideally a volunteer who won't actually be playing) choose a relatively poor and isolated (although not terrible or completely isolated) starting position for the human player. The game could be made a part of the Apolyton University series if there is sufficient interest, but I wouldn't want to put the rest of AU on hold waiting for people to finish such a monster.

By the way, the thing that got me interested in the idea is that I've never played a game with more than 16 civs in it. It seems like it could be interesting to do so.

	24-06-2003 14:06									#2
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Playing waterball on Civ3 this summer, with 23 other friends? I AM FOR IT!
When do we start?

	24-06-2003 15:19									#3
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24 civs, max water, archipelago? I forsee a lot of civs being wiped out before you ever make contact. Sounds like a fun proposition - not that I have a lot of time for civving these days

	24-06-2003 15:37									#4
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Keep in mind that this map will have just over one and a half times the distance across and almost two and a half times the tiles (albeit mostly water) of a standard huge map, with only one and a half times the civs. The OCN will probably be high enough to make the AIs a bit more aggressive than usual, but even so, I don't see a lot of civs getting wiped out in AI vs. AI combat.

What I do see is a long game with real potential for interesting naval operations late in the game, especially if the human's starting position is tough enough to give at least some of the AIs a tech lead when the AIs and human meet.

	24-06-2003 18:12									#5
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay especially if the human's starting position is tough enough to give at least some of the AIs a tech lead when the AIs and human meet.

WHAT??? The AIs don't already have a tech lead when they meet the human player? What am I doing wrong?

I'd try it... but I hate hard starts cause, well, I suck at Civ, but... what difficulty? Higher than Monarch and I'll just cry the whole game. (Which, although you may find it odd, is MUCH cheaper than heaving my computer monitor out the window.)

	24-06-2003 18:19									#6
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dup post

Last edited by mimi on 24-06-2003 at 20:10

	24-06-2003 19:23									#7
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the Laughingstock of Apolyton hereby casts his vote: "yea".

	24-06-2003 19:59									#8
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I've been playing a game on Marla's world map (256 by 204 I think) with 24 civs as the Zulus who are isolated enough not to gain from early war.

It's not the wait between turns that takes time; it's more that at some stages of the game you can double your income just by trading world maps thoroughly. Having to talk to most civs every turn or risk losing out in tech does make it very slow.

Even though this is close to a pangea, warfare is not as common or as easy as you'd imagine. The weaker AI's have all been completely peaceful and distance makes war between the stronger civs more difficult.

I'd be worried that you'd end up with the same diplomatic or spaceship victory whatever happened. It's relatively easy to trade up to the front in tech if you are behind especially there's a spectrum of AI positions. Then it's hard to get ahead of the AI's at all even if you sucessfully conquer a few civs. The game is decided almost entirely by superior human trading and building wonders and SS parts faster. You might as well play a normal OCC which has the advantage of being slightly faster.

	24-06-2003 20:21									#9
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I will be fired very soon from my current job, so maybe I will have a lot of time for playing in the summer. Unfortunatly I must give my Notebook back so I will have to by a desktop PC....

	24-06-2003 20:26									#10
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Certainly an interesting exercise, but one that my comp refuses to participate in ("Come on Bessy, you can do it!!"...no such luck).

I therefore volunteer to set up the map. Please feel free to refuse me if you want someone else to do it (alexman and I have shared the last 6 or more AU scenarios).


Dominae

	24-06-2003 20:31									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I therefore volunteer to set up the map.

Did you set up the map for the Total War AU?

	24-06-2003 20:32									#12
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quote: Originally posted by mimi I'd try it... but I hate hard starts cause, well, I suck at Civ, but... what difficulty? Higher than Monarch and I'll just cry the whole game. (Which, although you may find it odd, is MUCH cheaper than heaving my computer monitor out the window.)

AU games are set up as scenarios where you can pick your difficulty level (and that would make sense for this one whether it's officially part of AU or not). That way, if you're warned in advance that a game is going to be on the tough side, you have the option of stepping down a level from where you normally play.

	24-06-2003 20:34									#13
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quote: Originally posted by cumi Did you set up the map for the Total War AU?

Alex was responsible for creating that monster.

	24-06-2003 20:37									#14
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Dominae, how about if I set up a generic 250x250, 24-civ map scenario and send it to you, and you supply the specific map and starting positions? Sorry about your not having the computing power to participate.

	24-06-2003 20:41									#15
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Why do you need to send me a generic map (I can generate one on my computer just fine)? Just wondering if I'm missing something here.


Dominae

	24-06-2003 20:45									#16
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Count me in, as this should be really fun. But at 250x250, the 512 city limit will probably be reached sometime in the game. With 230x230, I'm sure we would be OK. It's still pretty huge. What do you think?

	24-06-2003 21:34									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Why do you need to send me a generic map (I can generate one on my computer just fine)? Just wondering if I'm missing something here.

My scenario wouldn't have a map in it; just the setting changes for world size, OCN, starting distance, research rate, and so on. (I'd kind of like to tune those myself.)

	24-06-2003 21:39									#18
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Ok, that's fine by me.

Just make sure all the players know what kind of tweaks you've made (I know you know this, but felt the need to say it anyway). You planning anything drastic?


Dominae

	24-06-2003 21:47									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Konquest02 Count me in, as this should be really fun. But at 250x250, the 512 city limit will probably be reached sometime in the game. With 230x230, I'm sure we would be OK. It's still pretty huge. What do you think?

A lot depends on whether we want there to be deserted islands (and deserted tundra, desert, etc.) or not. If we want the entire world settled, even 220x220 would go over 512 cities by the time you count coast. 250x250 would run up against the number of cities limit a lot sooner, leaving areas no one gets around to settling in a timely manner deserted (and likely requiring relatively aggressive players to raze or abandon cities in some places in order to settle cities in others).

Opinions?

	24-06-2003 21:50									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Ok, that's fine by me. Just make sure all the players know what kind of tweaks you've made (I know you know this, but felt the need to say it anyway.) You planning anything drastic?

I'll probably just scale everything up in rough proportion to how it's done on the existing map sizes.

	24-06-2003 22:14									#21
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay 250x250 would run up against the number of cities limit a lot sooner, leaving areas no one gets around to settling in a timely manner deserted (and likely requiring relatively aggressive players to raze or abandon cities in some places in order to settle cities in others). Opinions?

I'm up for this. I dig playing the similar sized Ultra-Gigantic Map in one of the CTP2 mods. I imagine though, having unsettled space on the map would definitely give a different feel to the game. I also imagine with 24 civs you would have to destroy a handful just to make diplomacy manageable.

	24-06-2003 22:15									#22
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This is actually very close to the Civ3 SPDG we are doing now. We are the vikings. Togas and BFM did a custom map, where there will be lots of water action. We are playing Deity. There are all 24 civs. We are at 900 BC right now. Join in. We have had very low participation and the more that can join in the better. All are welcome. Elections will be held soon also, and so far I don't think anybody is running yet.

	24-06-2003 22:34									#23
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GodKing, I actually find that DGs are more time-intensive than SP games, if you put a reasonable amount of effort into them. Therefore I'm out.

Nathan, I'm ready for the scenario shell whenever you're finished. What to do about civ choice? I could make it more interesting by placing civs, but then that means the human player would have a restricted set of choices.


Dominae

	24-06-2003 22:47									#24
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My current thought is to reserve a small set of civs for the human player to choose from and have the ones not chosen among those assigned randomly among starting locations relatively far from the human player (unless everyone wants to be the French ). The idea would be that the civs likely to be met before Navigation will be the same for everyone, but which civ is where after that would tend to vary.

So the question is, besides the French, who wants to play what civ?

	24-06-2003 22:47									#25
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I'm up for this. I'm not sure why, but the max water maps turn out to be fun games a large portion of the time.

By the way, in case I've never done it before, I want to thank you guys for all the effort that goes into setting up these games. They have kept my interest pretty high especially considering the declining attention span I have for most other things!

	24-06-2003 23:02									#26
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Just a heads-up:
Those Civs at the periphery of the map will have a defensive advantage compared to those in the center of the map area since they will have fewer threat axes. Additionally, the center civs will have earlier contact with their neighbors. Just an item for consideration....

	24-06-2003 23:18									#27
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I'm in, I like HUGMONGOUS maps unlike the bulk of Civ3ers who appear to despise them.

	24-06-2003 23:29									#28
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I've never played anything bigger than the unmodded huge map. I'd play it for the experience. Don;t really have a civ preference.

That said . . .

quote: Originally posted by Nor Me It's not the wait between turns that takes time; it's more that at some stages of the game you can double your income just by trading world maps thoroughly. Having to talk to most civs every turn or risk losing out in tech does make it very slow. [. . . ] I'd be worried that you'd end up with the same diplomatic or spaceship victory whatever happened. It's relatively easy to trade up to the front in tech if you are behind especially there's a spectrum of AI positions. Then it's hard to get ahead of the AI's at all even if you sucessfully conquer a few civs. The game is decided almost entirely by superior human trading and building wonders and SS parts faster. You might as well play a normal OCC which has the advantage of being slightly faster.

My expectations are pretty much the same as Nor Me's. I probably won't have the patience to trade maps relentlessly, nor to check trade deals often enough to avoid missing juicy opportunities. So be it. Regardless, I would still expect (hope?) to win, and would also expect to win just as Nor Me predicts -- a diplo or SS win. I just played a large map random game and resolved to win via domination or conquest (even though the other conditions were enabled) - it honestly got quite boring moving all my units each turn when the result was a foregone conclusion. Same thing can happen with a strong diplo / technology position.

Catt

	24-06-2003 23:50									#29
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OCC would be epic for me given the amount of free time I have.

	25-06-2003 00:00									#30
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Is this a single or multi-player game? If it's single I'm in. It will be my first attempt at an AU game. I've been reading along with the AU208 reports and it seems like lots of fun. Also never played a map larger than the un-modded huge maps, so this should be an experience. Can't wait!