24-06-2003 11:35									#1
	Turn 116, 250 BC Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

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	24-06-2003 11:36									#2
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So, I can't get past the diplomacy stage (Lego's Theology proposal) before we're ratified it?

	24-06-2003 12:26									#3
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We voted yes to peace, yes? This was a precondition of peace. There is no reason not to accept the free tech. Is there?

	24-06-2003 13:01									#4
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DeepO asked not to accept it in the previous turn thread until we've ratified it.
But I suppose that we already have. That idea has been around for a very long time and noone has objected IIRC, plus we've all voted for the peace agreement with Vox. There's a concensus around this, as far as I understand.

	24-06-2003 13:05									#5
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Nothing else to do this turn but economy, and moving the medinfs to follow RP's galley.

	24-06-2003 13:59									#6
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I'll post this here as well as in the Lego comments thread: we might want to clear things up with Lego regarding the possibility of using the Sistine for a prebuild. Given the number of wonders not yet built this might not be an issue, but I don't think any of the available wonders are as expensive as Sistine, so it might be useful as a prebuild for Leos or something. I don't think we need to hammer this out before accepting the deal, since I doubt we are going to reject it if we can't use the Sistine as a prebuild, but it is something that we might need to sort out afterwards.

	24-06-2003 14:56									#7
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I went ahead and accepted Theology, concurring with Shiber that we should treat the absence of objections from the team as sufficient consent. It's not like we're expecting a leader to rush it.

I've shifted a Hurricane laborer to a third mountain and spent 16 gold rushing the four shields we've missed so far on EotS's marketplace. With tiles reallocated, the marketplace will complete next turn. After we're done with that, Hurricane will have 15 surplus food.

	24-06-2003 14:59									#8
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Major question: Do we want to pump up Arashi's and/or Tempest's sizes? We have five workers sitting between them that are available for new purposes this turn, and a sixth that will be next turn.

	24-06-2003 15:10									#9
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Also, shall we go ahead and grab Vox's catapults? We won't lose much gold compared with if we waited a couple turns, and it would put us in a position to accept Dissidentville when Vox is ready to offer it. (They seem to be pulling all their remaining forces on the wrong side of Elipolis toward Dissidentville, and should be in a position to give us the city and do the teleport in two turns.)

	24-06-2003 15:16									#10
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Should we notify Vox first that we are going to take the catapults? We don't want to make them nervous.

	24-06-2003 15:20									#11
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Vox has had them sitting out in the open where we can take them any time we want to for several turns. If they wanted to make sure the treaty was finalized before handing them over, they presumably would have protected them instead of deliberately making it convenient for us to grab them.

	24-06-2003 15:30									#12
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Regarding adding workers to cities, my current thinking is to add three to Arashi and none to Tempest for the moment. Tempest has the shields to finish its marketplace in three turns, but getting five additional post-corruption shields per turn to reduce that to two is not practical if we're trying to expedite our FP. (Note that once our FP causes a radius expansion in Arashi, it will have a couple extra mountains to work, making it easier to have both Tempest and Arashi big.) Once Tempest finishes its marketplace, we'll probably want to add at least one worker to speed up the next thing it builds, but I'm not sure how practical adding more than one will be.

	24-06-2003 15:37									#13
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Of course we accept Theology. It was meant as a bonus from Lego for not finishing off Vox. And yes, a notification towards Vox regarding the catapults is in order.

	24-06-2003 15:40									#14
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I'd say wait another turn before taking the Cats. 3g is 3 g. As Vulture suggests, we should send Vox a message about what we are doing first in any case.

3 Workers added to Arashi would be nice (happiness should be ok at size 10). Probably cut the FP build by 2-3 turns, which is a good tradeoff IMO. The other 2 Workers could be added to Tempest, start on irrigating some of the EotS plains, or move towards Dissidentville so they can start chopping Jungle.

	24-06-2003 16:36									#15
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We already have five workers in the Dissidentville area (the ones that just finished a road there), so it's not urgent to bring in more. I'm thinking in terms of having four start clearing jungle and one start a road at D2. We also have a few more workers in the Blizzard area that will presumably be working on jungles shortly.

I'm thinking of having EotS go ahead and build a worker in between its marketplace and its library. That would get the food situation back to zero, or plus one once we irrigate a tile, and would let Tempest take over a mined plains tile once it finishes its marketplace. Adding a worker for that tile would bring it from 15 shields to either 16 or 17 after corruption to build a 5-turn library, and then we can add more workers after that to start it on a wonder prebuild. (Unless we're in too big a hurry with the wonder prebuild to want to take time for a library.)

	24-06-2003 16:52									#16
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Sounds good.

-Arrian

	24-06-2003 19:31									#17
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to explain why I asked for either ratification, or declining the offer from Lego:
1. the 20 turn NAP
2. The technicalality of being allowed the Sistine as a prebuild.

Other then that, there were no problems, of course.

I'll write a message to Vondrack, saying the deal is signed.

Any comments on what we're going to research?

DeepO

	24-06-2003 19:37									#18
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO to explain why I asked for either ratification, or declining the offer from Lego: 1. the 20 turn NAP 2. The technicalality of being allowed the Sistine as a prebuild.

As before, I think that point 2 needs clarifying with Lego, although whichever way it goes I doubt it is enough for us to refuse Theology from them. For point 1, do we even have time to decide to go to war against Lego and get a sensible number of troops there in 20 turns or less? Even with our galleys it looks like a 10 turn journey to get to any Lego territory, giving us 10 turns to stumble across a cause to attack them, coupled with buiding enough galleys to make an invasion feasable (not to mention enough troops to maintain security at home whilst allowing options on Bob). I really don't think that a 20 turn NAP is going to make the slightest bit of difference to our plans at this point.

	24-06-2003 20:32									#19
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ergh... correction.. that should be a 20-turn NDA, not NAP. And yes, it would be theoreticaly possible for us to attack them in the mean time, our galleys need some 13 turns to reach them

DeepO

	24-06-2003 21:13									#20
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I'm finishing the turn now. With the workers added, our FP is expected in 11 turns. That also improves our cash flow a bit. (Of course we'll lose a fair chunk of cash when we start pulling workers off from EotS, especially considering that even when we add the workers to other cities, those cities won't have libraries and marketplaces for a while.)

I went ahead and loaded two of the five workers by Dissidentville on a galley to have them start improving tiles in the Inchon/Elipolis area, with an eye toward eventually adding them to Elipolis's replacement. The other three will be clearing the jungle at D3, and I'm escorting them with a pike (not that one pike would do much good if Vox would take a notion to attack for some really weird reason; it's more just the idea of unescorted workers.)

	24-06-2003 21:24									#21
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A 20-turn NDA on a tech you don't pay for isn't such a bad deal. Regarding the idea of Sistine as a pre-build, I would suggest something along the lines of "by the way, we hope you don't mind if we use Sistine as a prebuild for some other wonder should the opportunity present itself." Either that or don't mention the idea at all until we're actually ready to use Sistine as a prebuild for something (which would probably be the better course; no sense giving Lego ideas to whatever extent they might not think of prebuilds and/or might not expect us to use them). By the way, if EotS goes in worker pump mode and we get Hurricane using less land and more coast, that will leave Tempest as our only really good wonder city for a while.

	24-06-2003 21:29									#22
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	24-06-2003 22:06									#23
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I agree on the 20-turn NDA... plus, seeing as 10 turns aren't enough, this might become the new standard in tech-deals.

As to the prebuild: I was ahead of you, Nathan ... already Vondrack responded positively.

For those who might miss it: there are some issues left in the Lego comments thread.

DeepO