25-06-2003 01:10									#1
	The war on terrorism is unwinnable Support Apolyton

that doesn't mean we shouldn't try of course. I'm never a big fan of laying down and surrendering. We will fight to the death.

But who's death? Who will win?

Eventually there will be nukes, and eventually they will be used on the U.S.

I know this is pessimistic, but I predict only doom and gloom the next 100 years. Yes someone mentioned this in another thread. Eventually in 100 years everyone will have nukes.

So eventually they will be used on the U.S. They will keep using them on the U.S. until it is either a) annhilated, or b) unconditional surrender.

I fear the only way of stopping terrorists would be total annhilation of the countries they operate from.

so in the future there will either be: annhilation of the U.S., surrender of the U.S., or annhilation of some muslim countries.

But what can we do in the meantime?

Right now we have two main choices. Take a hard stance against terrorism (my personal choice), and make every attempt to root out terrorist and kill them or put them in permanent detention. Or we try the nice guy way, and try to find out what's bothering the terrorists, and change our foreign policy to make other countries and other people happy. There is a third choice I suppose. And that is isolationism.

Go ahead with your thoughts on the future and how we should proceed from here.

	25-06-2003 01:16									#2
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It's a race against time, both for the survival of Islam and American democracy:
If a nuke explodes in an American city, there will be nothing to hold back the war of civilizations. Islam will be destroyed and America goes 1984.

The race is about Muslim nations succeeding the jump into the modern world and the US preventing terrorists from getting the nukes until then.

	25-06-2003 01:17									#3
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Only way to stop attacks is to remove the political and economic reasons for them...

Security checks, intelligence and guarding are important in the interim.

	25-06-2003 01:19									#4
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"Only way to stop attacks is to remove the political and economic reasons for them..."

How do we stop uncultured people being jealous?

	25-06-2003 01:28									#5
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War on just about anything is impossible to win. No justice, no peace - no peace, no justice. There will always be people who want to fight, always people who are oppressed, always people who want to blame their misery on someone else causing tensions.. always.
The only thing we can do is to fight it and make our own losses as little as possible, and so far we've been successful excluding 9/11.

	25-06-2003 01:31									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's "Only way to stop attacks is to remove the political and economic reasons for them..." How do we stop uncultured people being jealous?

by showing respect

	25-06-2003 01:36									#8
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how about this?

I make a public declaration on CNN that I respect all muslim people. And everyone else in the U.S. should do the same.

That should do the trick

	25-06-2003 01:37									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Atahualpa, it's not us who had problem with terrorists. It was them who had problems with us. If we start showing respect for them, they only will use it to their advantage. We must respect them as clever and smart enemy, but not as sensible human beings who deservers something other than death without honour.

If you're talking about poor and oppressed people in general, then what do you suggest we do? How do we show that respect? I'm not saying it's impossible, I just want to know what you had in mind.

	25-06-2003 01:37									#10
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That could only have come from a European.

	25-06-2003 01:40									#11
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well there is a possibility they move into the modern age and become less warlike.

But is it possible one group of people are more violent and warlike than another? I know that borders on racism, but it is a serious question. That seems unlikely though. As studies have shown there is little difference between human DNA from one race to the next. Humans are suprisingly alike. But the Indians seem so peaceful while the arabs do not.

I suppose it is more of a cultural thing than a race thing. but how do you change a culture to be less warlike?

	25-06-2003 01:46									#12
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It's possible that frogs will grow wings and not bump their ass.
More likely that, than turning the mind of a radical.

	25-06-2003 01:48									#13
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We could prolly get 6-8 good sized new states out of the region most of the terrorists come from....

-=Vel=-

	25-06-2003 02:35									#14
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Sloww, agreed. I believe that if all the radicals and terrorists put some effort on good old working instead of getting bombs and organizing terrorist groups which is a full day work, they might even start florishing. Western world has done a lot to keep their advancing slower, but if they stopped pointing fingers, let the past go, look in the mirror and start doing something for themselves, not against someone, they could actually succeed.

To me, it's their own choice. If they choose to fight us with their free wills, so it will be.

	25-06-2003 02:40									#15
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yes of course you are all soooo clever
live up to your full arrogance level and see how far you will come

	25-06-2003 02:41									#16
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That's right...they might throw some more shoes at us....

-=Vel=-

	25-06-2003 02:42									#17
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Atahualpa, Well why don't you give us some examples how we can show respect?

	25-06-2003 02:54									#18
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also, what change will happen when we get rid of our dependence on foreign oil from the middle east?

Could that give them the kick in the ass needed to start figuring out how to work and make a living the real way?

	25-06-2003 02:55									#19
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Diss, at that point, Tupperware will buy the ME to make LOTS of plactic stuff...

-=Vel=-

	25-06-2003 03:03									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa yes of course you are all soooo clever live up to your full arrogance level and see how far you will come

I am sorry, I bow in your grandeur, noble savages!








I am glad to hear that pro and anti cultural-relativistic talk is beginning to heat up in Apolyton.

	25-06-2003 03:06									#21
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Anyone with an internet connection, a grudge and a supply of fertiliser can become a terrorist. It's endemic to the modern world. To pretend that Islam is the sole source of terrorism is quite deluded.

	25-06-2003 03:08									#22
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why? because you cant think for yourself?

Whom do you follow more? A rich show-off, or one that is rich yet acts like a normal guy.

President Bush's "either you are with us or you are with the terrorists" statement showed once more what the US thinks. Its the center of the world and there are only two sides. As if I could not care less. Doesnt that also represent the US political situation. What are there. Democrats and Republicans and slowly they grow together and become the same. How on Earth can one be satisfied of only 2 views. There is clearly more than black and white. And by pigeonholing everyone into this schema the US is making a lot of enemies.
The US has fought Iraq in 1991 then completely let down the people that revolted against the regime. What do you expect?
The world has one opinion about the US and that is that its acting in their own best interest all the time. Sure other countries do the same. Maybe all other countries. But thats just not visible from France, Britain, Germany. They are much more subtle. The US is the shiniest example of this. When Bush didnt ratify the Kyoto protocol because that would damage US economy. That was just a boost in favor of my opinion.
There were lots of reports here from the war where they said that british troops acted much more subtle. They tried to gain friendship with the people, build up a relationship,... the only thing I heard from a US officer was "we are so great, we will kill them all, blah blah blah".
Now I have followed the war not much but well that all fits into one big picture.

Basically if the US doesnt try to live in peace with the world this means war. And in the end ultimate war. The US cannot control everything. That would also mean you give up your so loved personal freedom (free speech, free blah blah) and then YOU will revolt and the US will destroy itself from within.

come ****er get up, come get down with the sickness,....

	25-06-2003 03:10									#23
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if thats your first post to this thread azazel you can leave right away

	25-06-2003 03:13									#24
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quote: The world has one opinion about the US and that is that its acting in their own best interest all the time. Sure other countries do the same. Maybe all other countries.

Duh!

	25-06-2003 03:13									#25
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It's not a question if I can come up with any ways to show respect. It was your argument. Now you must give few examples, or then your argument was meaningless.

You act as if Bush is the only voice of America, and what it stands for. And then you act as if you know the whole worlds one and only opinion. How black and white is that?

I agree that we must make friends, not enemies...

But as long as you don't provide any examples to your previous argument, I consider the rest of the arguments the same way. Complete trash.

	25-06-2003 03:21									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident also, what change will happen when we get rid of our dependence on foreign oil from the middle east?

imo, that would solve the problem outright because we could divest ourselves financially, politically, and spiritually from that whole clusterf*ck of a region.

In the absence of that, we're probably all going to die. So kick back, watch Friends, don't question your leaders, and support the patriot act

	25-06-2003 03:24									#27
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Of course Bush is the only voice. The only voice loud enough that can be heard here.
I do not know anything about what Al Gore said or if he is still alive. I do not have the time to gather information. I am in the same situation as an American with American news and from that situation this is my advice.

About the worlds opinion okay that was exaggerated. Its just the opinion of a lot of people that I have gathered and averaged.
As I said, everyone's doing that, but others are more subtle. Thats a key to success in my opinion.
You can be the greatest *******, if you fool the whole world nobody is pissed.

Respect of course is the "good" approach. Not the wheaseling one.
I assume every person has several needs. One is food. One is housing. One is expressing himself (through work, art or speech) but ONE and I think the most important one is be Respected.
Yes thats a passive one and thats the only one where others have to do the job. Now do not **** that up and you are done.

Speak out condolences to muslim families that have lost their members. Do what do I know to make friends. Heck I am not good at making friends, you ask the wrong for advice.

Perhaps respect is step 2 on the scale. First make them friends and then show respect. I guess maybe respect keeps then rather than brings everyone on one side.

	25-06-2003 03:24									#28
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quote: In the absence of that, we're probably all going to die.

It's good that you're not histerical and fear-mongering.

	25-06-2003 03:26									#29
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Atahualpa, I agree with some of your points.

	25-06-2003 03:28									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa I do not know anything about what Al Gore said or if he is still alive.

He died quite awhile ago. He was replaced with a robot.