25-06-2003 15:34									#1
	Alliance? Enter the AD-FREE zone

In my current game I had a full alliance with another empire for about 75 turns. All of a sudden, without warning, they declared war. This despite the fact that I had just fulfilled an alliance obligation (declare war on NO) and I had consistently supported them in the Senate.

Has anyone else had this happen?

PS: Maybe I shouldn't complain since I'll have to wipe them out later anyway.

	25-06-2003 16:21									#2
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Nope, but normally I prefer to stay out of fulfilling Alliance Obligations.
AT the Moment the Nommo are begging me to fulfill Alliance Obligations with the Silicoids with whom I despite some severe Border Clashes have some very precious Trade and Research Treaties and with the Imsaeis with whom I have a Non Aggression Pact (aside from Trade and Research Treates).
SO I just stall those requests and despite from the Nommo at the moment having 3 Requests for Attacks against the Imsaeis and also 3 Requests to attack the SIlicoid (which I regularly stall) the relations to them havenīt worsened a lot. But maybe it helps that I play the Psilons, which are always considered the nice guys in the galaxy

Maybe the war against the New Orions altered their Opinion against your Empire?
(despite the fact that they were the ones which made you start the war )
Or maybe the New Orions voted in the Senate to declare Total war against you (and the other Empire is a member of the senate and you arenīt) ?

	25-06-2003 18:00									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST Or maybe the New Orions voted in the Senate to declare Total war against you (and the other Empire is a member of the senate and you arenīt) ?

That's what really confuses me. The other empire is currently President of the Senate (thanks to my support in voting). Under victory conditions they were ranked first and my empire was ranked second (they've got about 300 more votes in the Senate). Our combined voting power in the Senate was something like 9000 votes vs. 6000 for the remaining empires including the NO.

Despite their #1 ranking I can probably cream them due to superior research (and I believe production capacity) and that's why I can't understand their change of attitude.

	25-06-2003 21:14									#4
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I don't Stall or Refuse such requests...I simply hit the "Return to Previous" button and pretend I never heard them.

	26-06-2003 09:05									#5
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Isn't the penalty for ignoring them greater than stalling or refusing?

	26-06-2003 17:10									#6
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When I've had treaty partners with whom I have a good relationship declare war it has generally been because they have stronger treaties or conflicting treaties with other AIs. Those 'other AIs' are at war with me. So, the my treatied AIs seem to be agreeing to a request from the AI I'm at war with to fulfill their treaty obligations. It actually makes sense.

When asked to fulfill my treaty obligations I'll happily declare war on the Harvesters (who need to be exterminated) but generally pull a Stormhound and ignore the request.

	28-06-2003 15:39									#7
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Thats one thing I like about the Paradox approach. If everyone joins an Alliance rather than making dozens of 1:1 treaties then this doesn't happen. If you hate someone you are allied to and want to declare war you have to quit the alliance first. If anyone in your alliance declares war or is attacked then your whole alliance goes to war. If you don't want to go to war then you will be dropped out of the alliance. You don't get these mysterious flip/flop relationships.

	29-06-2003 10:03									#8
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I found the best way to avoid entangling alliances is not to make any alliances in the first place.

	29-06-2003 13:32									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 I found the best way to avoid entangling alliances is not to make any alliances in the first place.

This is how I'm dealing with the situation about 15 turns later. I (successfully) invaded about 10 planets and suddenly the other empire wanted peace again. I accepted so that I could concentrate on other wars, and about two turns later they offered a defensive alliance. I turned them down.

	02-07-2003 09:29									#10
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Way to go!

	10-07-2003 12:01									#11
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Sometime alliance are necressly. Geogre Washington when he was President have than Secert understang with England
who have than lager navy to protect our merant shipping from pirates.

	11-07-2003 11:05									#12
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quote: Originally posted by CharlesBHoff Sometime alliance are necressly. Geogre Washington when he was President have than Secert understang with England who have than lager navy to protect our merant shipping from pirates.

Certainly, in the real world alliances are crucial to good international relations. I just don't advocate their use in Moo3 (or Civ3).

	12-07-2003 02:04									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Certainly, in the real world alliances are crucial to good international relations. I just don't advocate their use in Moo3 (or Civ3).

It was not than alliances as Washington want to stay out of any alliances with any Nation so we willnot get involde in Foreign Wars which we didnot follow. It was than secert understandering with England to potect our merchant ships from pircary as we didnot have at that time than Navy only small Coast Guard sloop.

	13-07-2003 03:43									#14
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what?

	13-07-2003 10:20									#15
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quote: Originally posted by CharlesBHoff It was not than alliances as Washington want to stay out of any alliances with any Nation so we willnot get involde in Foreign Wars which we didnot follow. It was than secert understandering with England to potect our merchant ships from pircary as we didnot have at that time than Navy only small Coast Guard sloop.

Any English understanding with Washington wasn't worth the paper it wasn't printed on. Even before he left office the English were boarding individual American ships and pressing our sailors into service on their ships. Now, it was not unusual to see pressgangs at the various ports around that time but it was considered very rude to steal sailors off of ships at sea. This issue eventually became one of the primary causes of the War of 1812.

	14-07-2003 12:02									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Any English understanding with Washington wasn't worth the paper it wasn't printed on. Even before he left office the English were boarding individual American ships and pressing our sailors into service on their ships. Now, it was not unusual to see pressgangs at the various ports around that time but it was considered very rude to steal sailors off of ships at sea. This issue eventually became one of the primary causes of the War of 1812.

It was worth the paper it was written on. First there where America who want to invade Canada to forceful free Canada from England rule. Washington and afew leader like John Adam where against that idear for afew very good reason.

First the Candanian people where happy under England rule and never want to rebel in the first place.

It we invade Canada the England King would have full support of the Partialent in his war against America. In the war that fought before the King have total control of the Navy and Partiament have to pay for it automatic anyway.
The King had only a limit land Army under his direct control l he had to paid for it out of his pocket. The majority of the
land force where Partialment control where it the King want to use then he needed Partialment approval underless England Territory was invade and then he didnot
need they approval to use than at all. That why the English King has to use Germany Hessan to fight his war. We where never at war with the Partialment which is one of the reason why we won.

Second no nation in Eupore would have help us it we invade Canada even the French King wouldnot help us as He gave the idear of French controling Canada any way.

The two reason above would have led to than English victory over America at that time. Washington was able to control the New England and New York State enought to stop these states from Invadeing Canada the president after him where less sucressful at that than he was. Washington got the Jay Treatry pass thought Congress which regonite England control of Canada and her territerry.

Than 8 sloop navy which we have would have never potect
our merchant ship at all and to built than large navy was not possible as we didnot have the available recource to built up the nation and to have than Navy equall to England which have 1000 ship of the line, 3000 frigate and thousand's of smaller ships.

The English king refuse to sign the treaty ending the Rev war Partialment have to temp declare the King unfit and sign the treaty. The reason why Partialment didnot dump the King which they have the power to do so was the other person who the bloodline to be King was 10 time worst than he.

	14-07-2003 16:00									#17
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/e watches the topic zoom off into interstellar space

	15-07-2003 07:18									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold /e watches the topic zoom off into interstellar space

First there is more to history than they teach in school nowday. First there were some America who didnot want to end our war with English King when some of our founding father did. Washington and Adam knew we just barely won and the wise thing to do is make peace with England.

	15-07-2003 15:08									#19
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Reached the milky way yet?

	18-07-2003 11:12									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold Reached the milky way yet?

The best science fiction book are written by authour who knew history look at the Foundation and Dune seire of book.

Some of the best role-playing games are written with a good sence of history in then like Traveller, Fadeing Sun. When the lord of the Ring was written by someone who knew history as evants donot happen by thenself.

Even MOO3 have than history to it. The Back Story.

	18-07-2003 15:41									#22
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Glad you brought up Traveller. Great game. Would have been a great model for Moo3.

	18-07-2003 16:10									#23
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Yes I'd have liked to see modern versions of the Megatraveller games. Traveller ship design was something that game me endless hours of fun in the PnP game.

Maybe Moo4 should be under the traveller system, just so fans of Moo1, 2 and 3 can all complain that it bears no resemblance to the prequels

	18-07-2003 16:39									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold Yes I'd have liked to see modern versions of the Megatraveller games. Traveller ship design was something that game me endless hours of fun in the PnP game.

Yep, I really liked the Megatraveller Games for PC ansd Amiga.
Especially the part with the Character Creation, where you could start a military career and every year would be determined if you have been promoted this year and how many skillpoints you got for this year of service (til you ended the Character Creation and wanted to enter the game [or your character died during creation, which was also possible]).

Maybe a modern Version which is like Megatraveller 1 and includes better Graphics and expanded Possibilities (like the Ship Creation you mentioned) would be truely great

	19-07-2003 08:41									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold Yes I'd have liked to see modern versions of the Megatraveller games. Traveller ship design was something that game me endless hours of fun in the PnP game.

I preferred the original Traveller over Megatraveller. The ship design was flawed but fixed with a second edition of the original High Guard.

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold Maybe Moo4 should be under the traveller system, just so fans of Moo1, 2 and 3 can all complain that it bears no resemblance to the prequels

	29-07-2003 12:03									#26
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I have found that these are the main factors regarding the "strange" alliance AI decisions.
1) They have better relations with a speices you're at war with and they side w/them.
2) If you get real big and powerful your relations worsen with everybody (jealosy).
3) You are framed so well thet you have no knowledge of this.
4) You sanction an embargo against a friend of the ally.
5) Your two races' beliefs are too different for a lasting relationship.
6) You claim a system they had their eye on but did not claim.
7) You send too large of a patrol or fleet through their space.
8) You disregard a senate policy or law.

	30-07-2003 12:19									#27
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I believe you are largely correct but you are assuming the AI has a depth to it that it has not really demonstrated anywhere else to that degree.

	30-07-2003 13:26									#28
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No Alliance never last forever anyway.

	30-07-2003 14:51									#29
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Its not so much AI depth as a willingness to code in a lot of + or - factors. Since they touted a much expanded diplomacy module then it is reasonable to expect it to be true and my own observations bear it out. The AI then comes in what the races then do with this fluctuating like or dislike.

In 1.0 there was an acknowledged problem with it flip/flopping between liking you and declaring war on you, precisely because it didnt properly rationalise liking you but liking your enemy more. That sort of AI consistency is one of the good fixes in 1.2.4.

	30-07-2003 23:06									#30
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Here is my strategy for alliences. Don't enter into any until most races are known. Form trade, science and non-agresstion treaties. Then look at who is allied with who and find a large and powerful group of allies where you can insert yourself. If you get into a lot of Military Alliances then you get the WWI effect.