26-06-2003 01:20									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel oh who cares... Hamas spokesman to Ynet, israel's leading news resource: "We'll take the time to regroup". Until someone in the PA would actually move their asses against Hamas, I don't see an end to this.

Reports are that a PA general who reports to Dahlan says it will take 2000 men for him to control northern Gaza - which he has. Your govt seems to think Dahlan can maintain security, at least in Northern Gaza. Next step is to complete negotiations on the withdrawl, and hold the PA to action.

	26-06-2003 01:24									#32
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Based on experience, I don't trust Israel to keep the ceasefire any more than Hamas... Both are a bunch of ****ers, and you'll never know when a bunch of settler bastards will go out a shootin' a bunch of guys working on an olive plantation, and then uprooting the olive trees and replanting them in the settlements for decoration.

	26-06-2003 01:24									#33
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Ah!! Who says force doesn't work eh?

	26-06-2003 01:25									#34
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I have no sympathy for the Hamas butchers, but Israel has a nasty habit of trying to kill them with rockets while they are surrended by crowds or in buildings full of sleeping children. Israel's methods were clearly provocative, even if their initial targets were legitiamte.

the Hamas folks make it a point to stay surrounded by corwds and buildings. In most parts of the world, wanted insurgents go underground, use aliases, and their families learn to live without them. In Gaza Hamas leaders go about under their own names, traveling with their families. The entire Hamas strategy is based on taking advantage of the cost to Israel of using extreme methods. In response, as far as i can tell, Israel basically does a cost benefit analysis - how important is the target, versus the collateral damage. They went after Rantissi, apparently because he was involved in planning an entire campaign of attacks, and also, perhaps, because he was singlehandedly blocking the ceasefire negotiations.

	26-06-2003 01:28									#35
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quote: actually sandman, ive seen some people on the right question what Abbas brings to the table in this - I think its easier for Hamas to make concessions to him, than directly to Israel - he's a fig leaf for a Hamas surrender, from that point of view. and of course hes in a better position to press Europeans and Arabs to back off from supporting Hamas.

Well, you might be right, but I suspect that Abbas is just enjoying a honeymoon period which will fade away. Indeed, his appointment may have just made the PA more impotent.

quote: Israel's already tried negotiating with Arafat.

I mean negotiate with Hamas, and the others, directly.

	26-06-2003 01:29									#36
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Let's tone it down folks...

	26-06-2003 01:29									#37
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In the last couple of weeks, when Israel was firing rockets at these guys, they would fire a round, then wiat a little while while a gruop of people gathered round, then fired again, repeatedly, even up to the point that ambulances were arriving. Presumably after the first rocket strike, their target was either dead or getting the hell out of there.

Firing rockets after the first round is like the double suicide bombers who detonate a second explosive after aid arrives. There is absolutely no justification for it.

	26-06-2003 01:31									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman I mean negotiate with Hamas, and the others, directly.

Except that Arafat is the leadership for Fatah and Al Aqsa, and negotiating with him served little except to make the situation worse in the long run.

	26-06-2003 01:48									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Israel should start negotiating with the terrorists, and not with the pointless middleman that is the PA.

Should the US negotiate with Al-Quida? Should Churchill negotiate with Hitler?

One must hope for the sake of the Palestinian people, that Hamas doesn't represent their will, because if it does, then god have mercy on the thousands of them that will die in the next couple of years.

quote: I have no sympathy for the Hamas butchers, but Israel has a nasty habit of trying to kill them with rockets while they are surrended by crowds or in buildings full of sleeping children. Israel's methods were clearly provocative, even if their initial targets were legitiamte.

Statistics say that in 25% of such killings by Israeli helicopters, innocent people die. And it's a well-documented fact that the reaction would be the same whether or not innocents would be killed: hell, in an attempted arrest of a high-ranking terrorist a week ago, a shootout with Israeli soldiers errupted, and he was killed, him and only him. Powell responded to this by saying that "He's greatly concerned by Israel's killing of innocent civilians" . Hamas vowed revenge, as always.

This notion that such actions infuriate a peaceful Hamas are rediculous, because Hamas is not peaceful. The notion that such actions drive people to make suicide bombers is also rediculous, since suicide bombers were always plentyful in the territories, even when there were no open hostilities ( remember the 90s? ). The bottleneck of suicide bomber activity is not cannon-fodder manpower, but the preparation of "kits", and the organization of transportation, infiltration, etc.

quote: Reports are that a PA general who reports to Dahlan says it will take 2000 men for him to control northern Gaza - which he has. Your govt seems to think Dahlan can maintain security, at least in Northern Gaza. Next step is to complete negotiations on the withdrawl, and hold the PA to action.

One can hope, but since Abu-Mazen has told that he won't fight Hamas, it seems that it will amount to "please don't do it".

	26-06-2003 01:48									#40
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quote: Except that Arafat is the leadership for Fatah and Al Aqsa, and negotiating with him served little except to make the situation worse in the long run.

Does he personally lead the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, or is he a distant figurehead? Surely it would be more sensible to try and negotiate with someone close to the organisation than somebody with no power over it?

	26-06-2003 02:03									#41
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When or why would Hamas ever stop its attacks?

I think they would only stop when they're entirely wiped out, which I think is a stretch and a near impossible task. Especially so because as long as the hate remains there will be people willing to blow themselves up.

The other option would be when they lose support among the Palestinian population... And remember, it's a war, and the terrorists are the only "military" the Palestinians have. How many of you Americans supported your troops in Iraq (even when you didn't actually support the war)?

Only when Israel starts making concessions, e.g. by removing settlers, acknowledging a Palestinian state, starting wellfare and healthcare programs and building rather than destroying houses or whatever, can they ever achieve that.

	26-06-2003 02:13									#42
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In the last couple of weeks, when Israel was firing rockets at these guys, they would fire a round, then wiat a little while while a gruop of people gathered round, then fired again, repeatedly, even up to the point that ambulances were arriving. Presumably after the first rocket strike, their target was either dead or getting the hell out of there.

I had an argument with an Israeli guy on another forum, a right-winger, that claimed that the Helicopter pilots are actually pro-hamas, and miss on purpose. To each his own, I guess.

Oh, and any link to that "continuing firing while ambulances are arriving"?

quote: I think they would only stop when they're entirely wiped out, which I think is a stretch and a near impossible task. Especially so because as long as the hate remains there will be people willing to blow themselves up.

People willing to blow themselves up was never the problem, as I said.

quote: The other option would be when they lose support among the Palestinian population... And remember, it's a war, and the terrorists are the only "military" the Palestinians have. How many of you Americans supported your troops in Iraq (even when you didn't actually support the war)?

erm, this is not really correct. The largest forces are still commanded by the PA.

quote: Only when Israel starts making concessions, e.g. by removing settlers, acknowledging a Palestinian state, starting wellfare and healthcare programs and building rather than destroying houses or whatever, can they ever achieve that.

Israel has repeatedly acknowledged a Palestinian state. removement of settlers was done on a simbolic basis, to show good will to the PA, and more would've been done, if things were humming along from the other side. The other side is currently busy sorting out his own ****.
Healthcare and Welfare? I guess we should also shower them with golden Rolex watches. Building rather than destroying houses is cute yet not related, since palestinians do their own building, and destroying the homes of a couple of terrorists is hardly "violence against the Palestinian people".

	26-06-2003 02:15									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Does he personally lead the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, or is he a distant figurehead? Surely it would be more sensible to try and negotiate with someone close to the organisation than somebody with no power over it?

Even if you want to believe that he has no control over these groups now, that certainly wasn't the case 10 years ago, when Israel began to negotiate with him.

	26-06-2003 02:15									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator Only when Israel starts making concessions, e.g. by removing settlers, acknowledging a Palestinian state, starting wellfare and healthcare programs and building rather than destroying houses or whatever, can they ever achieve that.

Only when the pals stop demanding "right of return", acknowledging an Israeli state, distributing monetary aid it receives to its people, and not destroying buildings or buses or whatever

	26-06-2003 02:16									#45
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quote: quote: Should the US negotiate with Al-Quida? Should Churchill negotiate with Hitler?

Ah touche. But since you're negotiating, you might as well negotiate with those with their fingers on the trigger, rather than someone who doesn't. Unless of course, the negotiations are designed to fail, in order to keep up appearances.

People have negotiated peace after far bloodier wars than the Israel-Palestine conflict.

	26-06-2003 02:17									#46
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quote: Does he personally lead the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, or is he a distant figurehead? Surely it would be more sensible to try and negotiate with someone close to the organisation than somebody with no power over it?

I am sorry. He's currently under trial, in jail.

	26-06-2003 02:28									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Ah touche. But since you're negotiating, you might as well negotiate with those with their fingers on the trigger, rather than someone who doesn't. Unless of course, the negotiations are designed to fail, in order to keep up appearances.

Wtf should Israel negotiate with those who's goal is it's distruction? to get a "reccess" like Abbas is try to do now?

Israel tries to find someone who can:
a) Accept Israel.
b) be in charge of the palestinians.

And Abbas is the best looking candidate for now.

quote: People have negotiated peace after far bloodier wars than the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Yes. And usually one side lost. So far, Israel is winning, by far. The Israeli population has been largely shielded from the war, and it's economy was hit relativly little. The Palestinians ARE in trouble, as Abu Mazen said to Hamas during negotiations. ( quite an interesting read, btw )

	26-06-2003 02:29									#48
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quote: Even if you want to believe that he has no control over these groups now, that certainly wasn't the case 10 years ago, when Israel began to negotiate with him.

quote: I am sorry. He's currently under trial, in jail.

Ok, so negotiate (or at least try) with the other two.

	26-06-2003 02:31									#49
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YOU PROVIDE NOTHING!!! and yet you want to destroy israel....you criminal

	26-06-2003 02:31									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel People willing to blow themselves up was never the problem, as I said.

I didn't see that...

quote: Healthcare and Welfare? I guess we should also shower them with golden Rolex watches. Building rather than destroying houses is cute yet not related, since palestinians do their own building, and destroying the homes of a couple of terrorists is hardly "violence against the Palestinian people".

Well, seriously, Palestine isn't quite independent yet, but the only thing Israel is doing is build a wall around it and run tanks and bulldozers through it. Dying Palestinians aren't allowed into an Israeli hospital, they're just left to die in the "inferior" Palestinian hospitals.
Can't the Israeli government help create a livable environment rather than destroy it.

quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Only when the pals stop demanding "right of return", acknowledging an Israeli state, distributing monetary aid it receives to its people, and not destroying buildings or buses or whatever

That's all mostly the responsibility of the terrorist organisations.

	26-06-2003 02:45									#51
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quote: Well, seriously, Palestine isn't quite independent yet, but the only thing Israel is doing is build a wall around it

More like a wall from it.

quote: and run tanks and bulldozers through it. Dying Palestinians aren't allowed into an Israeli hospital, they're just left to die in the "inferior" Palestinian hospitals.

Palestinians have been admitted to Israeli hospitals in numerous cases. Just some of the things you don't know.

quote: Can't the Israeli government help create a livable environment rather than destroy it.

the Israeli government has no interest in the palestinians, and for the most part in the territories, either. It may sound shocking, but actually, it's natural. Every government cares for it's own.

quote: Ok, so negotiate (or at least try) with the other two.

Which other two ? You mean Hamas and Islamic Jihad?

How the hell do you want Israel to negotiate on a PERMAMENT AGREEMENT FOR PEACE with organizations that want to destroy it?

	26-06-2003 02:52									#52
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quote: Wtf should Israel negotiate with those who's goal is it's distruction? to get a "reccess" like Abbas is try to do now?

Give them a non-pitiful state. If they keep attacking, you have a carte blanche to hit them hard. Hamas sometimes says that it would accept a withdrawal to the '67 borders, find out if they're being honest or if they're talking bollocks. Of course they also sometimes say that they want to drive the Israelis out, but the Israelis also sometimes express the same attitude regarding the Palestinians. The idea behind negotiation is to eliminate these extreme positions.

quote: Yes. And usually one side lost. So far, Israel is winning, by far. The Israeli population has been largely shielded from the war, and it's economy was hit relativly little. The Palestinians ARE in trouble, as Abu Mazen said to Hamas during negotiations. ( quite an interesting read, btw )

Israel may be winning, but it can't concievably win.

	26-06-2003 02:55									#53
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Anyway, it seems that we've got the Emperor on our side, and Europe will play ball against Hamas, too, if what I've recently heard is true.

quote: WASHINGTON - U.S. President George W. Bush on Wednesday demanded that Hamas and groups like it be taken out of business, saying that only then will there be "a chance for peace." The president also reacted skeptically to the reported agreement of Palestinian militants to halt attacks on Israelis for three months. "I'll believe it when I see it," Bush said. "The true test for Hamas and terrorist organizations is the complete dismantlement of their terrorist networks, their capacity to blow up the peace process," Bush said at a news conference with European Union leaders. Meanwhile, a statement by Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas urged Bush to "exert the necessary effort for the road map to be implemented by both sides," and accused Israel of dragging its feet by hesitating to pull back forces. The two sides are holding meetings on an IDF withdrawal from the northern Gaza Strip and the West Bank city of Bethlehem. "It's one thing to make a verbal agreement," Bush said. "But in order for there to be peace in the Middle East, we must see organizations such as Hamas dismantled, and then we'll have peace, we'll have a chance for peace." Hamas and the Islamic Jihad were among the groups apparently signing on to the agreement. An official with one of the groups, however, said the deal was not final. Bush said he did not know details of the reported deal, but said he was dubious about it, "knowing the history of the terrorists." White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said he could not confirm the deal. "Anything that reduces the level of violence is a step in the right direction," said Fleischer said. "But it's only a step." Bush to EU: Cut funding for Hamas Bush also urged European Union nations to cut off funding for Hamas at his White House meeting with EU officials. Greek Prime Minister Costas Simitis told reporters that Middle East peace was at the "top of the list" of the talks between European Union and Bush administration officials. "I urge the leaders in Europe and around the world to take swift, decisive action against terror groups such Hamas, to cut off their funding and... support, as the United States has done," Bush told the news conference, accompanied by Romano Prodi, president of the European Commission, and Simitis, whose country holds the rotating EU presidency. The EU, United States, United Nations and Russia jointly drafted the road map they hope will end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

It's good to see them come around. Someone has to tackle Hamas, and if it's not going to be the PNA, It will be Israel.

	26-06-2003 03:03									#54
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quote: How the hell do you want Israel to negotiate on a PERMAMENT AGREEMENT FOR PEACE with organizations that want to destroy it?

Round a table with flowers, with every delegate having their own bottle of Evian.

Seriously, to take the Palestinian side:

How the hell do you want Hamas and Islamic Jihad to negotiate on a PERMANENT AGREEMENT FOR PEACE with a government that includes people who want to expel every last Palestinian from their homes?

Remember, if they keep attacking Israel even after a generous settlement, then Israel has a legitimate casus belli.

	26-06-2003 03:03									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Palestinians have been admitted to Israeli hospitals in numerous cases. Just some of the things you don't know.

Yes... I figured that BBC documentary I saw this week was just anti-semitic propaganda.
(What I'm trying to say is... you're probably right, but there are also a lot of things happening that aren't very kosher. And the Israeli guards seem to be very trigger-happy at times.

quote: the Israeli government has no interest in the palestinians, and for the most part in the territories, either. It may sound shocking, but actually, it's natural. Every government cares for it's own.

Maybe they should have some interest. Just like the US is showing some effort trying to rebuild Afghanistan and Iraq.

	26-06-2003 03:15									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Round a table with flowers, with every delegate having their own bottle of Evian. Seriously, to take the Palestinian side: How the hell do you want Hamas and Islamic Jihad to negotiate on a PERMANENT AGREEMENT FOR PEACE with a government that includes people who want to expel every last Palestinian from their homes?

no it doesn't. It's not that Hamas are a closed and a paranoid group. They're very much aware of what the Israeli society and government want, do, etc.

quote: Remember, if they keep attacking Israel even after a generous settlement, then Israel has a legitimate casus belli.

Yay, because everyone really cares about International Law!! Maybe they'll send us some peacekeepers to protect us, just like they protected us in Lebanon!

Noone seemed to care about it in 67', when Israel's route to Iranian oil was cut for weeks. Even today, a major newspaper such as the guardian refers to it as a "preemptive" strike, as if it wasn't really preemptive.



As always, Israel had to do the job by itself.

quote: (What I'm trying to say is... you're probably right, but there are also a lot of things happening that aren't very kosher. And the Israeli guards seem to be very trigger-happy at times.

Of course, some bad **** happens. Just look at the UK soldiers in Iraq. Heck, they just opened live fire on a crowd!

quote: Maybe they should have some interest. Just like the US is showing some effort trying to rebuild Afghanistan and Iraq.

US is showing that effort, because it wants to control them afterwards. We don't want to control them, we don't want to do anything with them. That wall is also very simbolic as of what do we want our relationship with them to look like. I, personally, agree with that position. I'd rather be more like the west than the arab world.