26-06-2003 18:59									#1
	Hmmmmm Weird Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Ok, the wierdest thing happened to me tonight as i was playing Civ3.

Let me tell u a story:

Background: Well i'm playing on a huge world map (a downloaded one from these forums) with 16 civs on warlord. Ok i'm doing relatively well in it, being in 3rd place just behind the Iroqious and China who are in 1st and 2nd respectively. From around the medieval ages through to now (half way through the modern ages) i've been trailing in research and have been mostly buying techs from civs that have them, mainly the top two, France and Egypt also. Now usually they ask for outrageous prices but i agree because i need the techs and want to keep up.

Ok, on to the main story: The weird thing is that i called on the diplomatic phone to France and placed about 3 modern age techs on the table and accidently (honest it was) hit the "Accept this or pay the consequences" button. Obviously they told me politely to shove it. Ok, fair enough i would too, but then i go and ask them what they would want for the techs and instead of doing the norm and wanting over a 1000gpt and about 1000 gold they just want my world map???? I just sit and stare at the portrait of Joan thinking she must have gone mad. I accept that deal and then phone China. With China i ask for a couple of techs and ask what they want for it, once again the reply i get is just my world map

By now i'm slightly puzzled. What makes a couple of the strongest nations in the world start throwing techs at me just because i accidently threaten one?

Also my neighbours to the north (the Iroqious) who i have had a MMP with for countless centuries calls me up and kindly ends it while Zululand who has never been very friendly calls up and offers a MMP??? Is it me or has this whole world of mine been turned upside just because i threatened France. It seems as it has. It is quite strange, totally against the norm.

So, any theories/comments ladies and gentlemen. Is this just a mystery of the world? Or alternatively have they just realised who their master is?

	26-06-2003 19:56									#2
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I don't think it was due to your threats.
Might be a bug....or something else...
Maybe, you had some very valuable information on your worldmap.

	26-06-2003 20:32									#3
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It is hard to know with the data we have, but if they have not been able to "see" your lands, then they are very anxious to have that knowledge.

	26-06-2003 23:46									#4
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hi ,

save , and a save from a couple turns ago , .......

have a nice day

	27-06-2003 03:36									#5
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Why would they want a world map? They can see everything alread

	27-06-2003 04:05									#6
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They can not see everything. they know about dispositions of units and resources. That is not the same thing.
They do not know if there is any open tiles in your empire, unless they travel thee or get a map.

	27-06-2003 08:00									#7
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My mistake. I had always thought that the AI knew the map, with units AND cities.

	27-06-2003 09:20									#8
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I'm thinking it might be a bug or something in that line of explanation. I really don't think my world map is that important at all, even though i am in the process of exploring Antartica and settling Australia, so maybe they want to know about a barren ice wasteland and, well Australia .


I have got a save from just before it happened and one from just after and one from a couple of turns before (through the autosave), so i might have a look at those and see what, if any, differences there are between them. I'll post back in a wee while to say what the results are. If u want saves so all you readers out there can have a look, feel free to ask for them and I'll figure out how to post them.

Cheers for your thoughts so far.

	27-06-2003 09:31									#9
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quote: Originally posted by MattH My mistake. I had always thought that the AI knew the map, with units AND cities.

hi ,

the AI knows the location of each city , .....

and if you send a settler to a spot on the map you shall see often that the AI tries to beat you to it , .....

have a nice day

	27-06-2003 10:25									#10
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Ok I've done a wee bit of testing to see whether its a one of or not thing. Well it was. I reloaded from just before the time when i got the really weird deal and tried the same tactic (ie threatening France) and well they still wanted some 1000 gold and 1000gpt so yeah it seems as if everything is back to normal now. Must of been a minor glitch that happened, I knew my world map was not worth that much. Damn it looks like I'm back to being behind in tech again.

quote: and if you send a settler to a spot on the map you shall see often that the AI tries to beat you to it

I don't agree with this really. In my current game I alone discovered Australia and it wasn't until I decided to trade my world map, after i had planted a few cities, before another nation landed a settler and built a city there. However maybe i have misunderstood what you where meaning panag in which case feel free to clear it up for me.

Attached is a save of the current game before I've done any trading. Could some of you have a look and tell my why I'm behind so far in tech while playing on Warlord. Any comments welcome.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Fl...Who/Aztecs4.rar

	27-06-2003 10:41									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

First, on Ai's and maps, I've kind of gotten the feeling just from playing that the AI knows what's on the map, but is held back from acting on that knowledge until it "officially" discovers the landmass, then everything's fair game. For instance, if you can keep a small island off all the AI maps, it's yours to settle at your leisure (though keeping it off their maps indefinitely is very tough). However, if you have a border hole deep in your territory, even though they don't officially have that area on their maps, they'll try to settle it if they know your landmass exists. However, let your culture expand enough to cover the hole and, even though they still aren't supposed to know what's on those tiles, they'll stop trying to settle it.

Second, on your save file, I'd love to take a look, but the extension is .rar, and even renaming it .sav gives a "not a valid .sav file" message.

	27-06-2003 11:06									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

.rar is a winrar compressed file.

get winrar.

	27-06-2003 11:20									#13
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I'll post a .sav file for you people without winrar.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Fl...Who/Aztecs4.SAV

	27-06-2003 12:35									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Gracias. I knew if I stumbled around here long enough I'd start learning things outside of the game, too.

	27-06-2003 12:49									#15
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I had exactly the same experience.

Playing on a huge map but on regent level.

Due to that kindness I won the game faster than without AI-kindness.

	27-06-2003 15:31									#16
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 They can not see everything. they know about dispositions of units and resources. That is not the same thing. They do not know if there is any open tiles in your empire, unless they travel thee or get a map.

Well, how can you explain that during my last game the Frenchs sailed directly to the opposite side of my island, where there were open tiles, without having my territory map (I never sell my maps). And, guess what! there were a settler and a spearman within the galley!

	27-06-2003 15:48									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Nym Well, how can you explain that during my last game the Frenchs sailed directly to the opposite side of my island, where there were open tiles, without having my territory map (I never sell my maps). And, guess what! there were a settler and a spearman within the galley!

Sounds to me that it was a coincidence. The AI scouting ship probably found the empty land the prior turn and decided to head in to settle.

AI do send boats to scout your coasts if you don't sell them world maps. and those boats usually will have a settler/spearman pair.

I've seen several suspicious looking AI ships scout my coast and check out the 1 tile that isn't covered by a border. When they find there isn't a good spot to settle, they just turn back.


Flip McWho : I had a look at your game. You have the whole of South America explored and to yourself. Ditto for Australia, and those (and a few islands in the pacific) are really the only two major pieces of landmass that are unsettled.

The AI very likely doesn't have this updated version of your worldmap. I forgot to test this, but give the map away then come back the next turn and see if they still want to offer you 3 techs for the same map.

	28-06-2003 06:43									#18
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flip:

I have the save and I will try to determine why you are lagging in tech, but I already suspect the cause. You are playing on a world map and with a starting location of South America you likely settled in mostly jungle areas. Chances are you are behind the other civ's simply because of all the time it would take you to clear out a place to live. In world map play China's starting position is always a good one, with SA's being one of the least desirable (only Japan's is worse IMO)

Remember you do get some bonuses at Warlord but Warlord is closer to Regent level than Chieftain.

	28-06-2003 07:11									#19
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Flip:

Settling in jungle was one of your problems, the second is the lack of a military and the third is the failure to secure the southern section of South America (the best land you had available)

*You needed to clear out the jungle much earlier, at least a doubling of your workforce should have been accomplished.
*You have failed to RR your available land even though you are reaserching miniturization, an inexcusable error even on chietfain.
*You have settled Austrailia even though you had better land available, causing you to lose wealth and shields through corruption and waste.
* You are militarily weak and cannot expand even if you wanted to, Your lands are open to invasion and you are likely keeping AI's happy through gifting.
* Its 1754 AD and you are still battling barbarians! Not good!

Recomendations:
1) Workforce needs increased (at least 4 fold)
2) Territory needs RR's pronto
3) You need to build up your military
4) You need to settle the southern area of South America

	28-06-2003 09:49									#20
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Here is what can be observed. Have open area inside you clture borders, do not allow maps to be gotten.
If that area is not visible from any place that the ai has been, it will not try to send settlers there.
Give it you map and seehow fast a settler heads towards it. This suggest what I have seen and heard from oters, that the ai knows all tiles an resources from the start. It is in the fog of war as you are and must clear it via travel or maps.
This is why it will not be able to trade via sea routes if the fog has not been lifted over sea tiles betwen the two of you. It knows the tiles are there, but can not act on that knowledge.
I would guess that one ai or another passed by those tile as they are coastal and they would have traded the map asap.
This is my understanding an experience, it may be worthless.

	28-06-2003 15:49									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

vmxa1,

Help me confirm this, but I do believe that as long as you've traded maps sometime in the past, the visible terrain features that map revealed do update occasionally even if no map is traded. Razed cities will disappear, but roads and terrain improvements won't show up until a new map is traded.

At least that's what my experience has been, although I will concede that I am not sure if any maps changed hands or if it was just an automatic updating of the visible map.

	28-06-2003 22:56									#22
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quote: Originally posted by dexters vmxa1, Help me confirm this, but I do believe that as long as you've traded maps sometime in the past, the visible terrain features that map revealed do update occasionally even if no map is traded. Razed cities will disappear, but roads and terrain improvements won't show up until a new map is traded. At least that's what my experience has been, although I will concede that I am not sure if any maps changed hands or if it was just an automatic updating of the visible map.

Dexters:

Once you have knowledge of the tile either through trading or exploration you will always know the location of those cities and the size of the cities (or the destruction of that city) and the resources on the tile (assuming you have the appropriate tech) you will not be able to see any new worker improvements without rexamining the tile (either through a unit or updated map)

	28-06-2003 23:05									#23
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Thats about the size of it.

	29-06-2003 01:03									#24
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If that's the case, and I've always suspected it was, then one of the supposed cheats people like to complain about of AI's sending settlers to fill in the spots of razed cities isn't really a cheat then. The AI is just more thorough.

Maybe it's just me, but that's been one of the most frequent complaints I hear against the AI.

	29-06-2003 02:56									#25
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I've often been amazed by how often I send my settlers to a particular spot and find the AI settling the spot shortly before my settler arrives. I have often suspected the AI of cheating in this manner and hearing that others have had a similar experience confirms it. I guess I'll just have to stop being lazy and move my settler a turn at a time rather than move them several at a time so I don't have to take the time.

	29-06-2003 06:27									#26
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First of thanks all for your comments.

Mad Bomber;
I'm slowly starting to build nothing but military units now, I am and pretty much always has been relatively weak in military affairs, as well I always tend to play builder games. I only start building military when my cities run out of improvements to build. More than likely this is a bad habit that i have got into (been doing it this way for ages) and now must force myself to change. Also I have never felt threatened by any of the computer players as for China to fight me would be a nightmare for them, also they have the Asian area to dominate and the Iroqious have always been close friends, nobody else matters really to me.

Jesus I really have to increase my workers by about 4x thats a massive amount of workers I will have running around isn't it?

The RR is on my to do list, but i should probably get a few workers off the jungle clearing and get onto it. Its the same with settling the bottom of SA I've been meaning to do it for the past few hundred centuries and I just have never got round to it.

Oh well I have to hope its not to late to make a come back.

vmxa1;
I've been trading maps with the AI since the beginning of time, thats how come theres a Greek and Roman city on South America and that Egyptian one on Australia, the computer just doesn't feel interested in settling any more of South America for some reason.

Again thanks for your comments. One further question though, When will the forbidden palace become available for me? As far as I'm aware I can't build it and I wonder how many cities I will have to have before it will become available.

	29-06-2003 06:30									#27
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I rarely play huge maps... 18 cities for an FP? You can find it in the editor.

And yeah, build all those Workers. Then capture some more. CivIII = The Worker Game.

	29-06-2003 06:55									#28
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The availablity of the FP is a function of the map size.
I think it is half of the OCN. To tell you the truth I never paid any attention to it. You get a msg when it is allowed.
I think OCN for huge map defalts to 32, so 16 for FP, but I could be wrong.

	29-06-2003 18:54									#29
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Flip - Remember that railroads only produce a bonus on irrigated and mined tiles, so don't waste time railroading jungle unless you place a high priority on linking your cities by rail.

	29-06-2003 22:13									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Slax Flip - Remember that railroads only produce a bonus on irrigated and mined tiles, so don't waste time railroading jungle unless you place a high priority on linking your cities by rail.

hi ,

but it can be highly important when you need it for a front , ......

have a nice day