27-06-2003 09:46									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen In MP most people disband or gift their workers rather than let you capture them... it is highly unlikely you'll end up with a horde of slave workers.

hi ,

that depends from player to player , from game to game , .....

have a nice day

	27-06-2003 10:19									#32
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , that depends from player to player , from game to game , ..... have a nice day

no sane player would ever let you capture their workers even if they were on the brink of defeat. Wars in MP are amost always do-or-die affairs and people always prefer to raze cities and disband units rather than have them be captured by the enemy

	27-06-2003 12:17									#33
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , a forest slow the enemy down in both SP and MP , ..... have a nice day

Why state the obvious. What does it have to do with the discussion? Are you trying to confuse me, it is easy to do.
Like you always say have a nice day and I mean it. A little banter is fine by me.

	27-06-2003 12:44									#34
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vmxa, the wait comes in the fact that you only have x number of slave workers and, in my games at least, x never equals four times the number of tiles I want, or usually need, railroaded in that first turn. Usually, I build up my worker force as I expand, add them to cities as I get everything roaded and optimized, then build it back up again right before SP, get my railroad in and start adding them back to cities. Bottom line is, in every game I've played, the slaves need augmenting when RR is first available, no matter how aggressive I've been.

Besides that, as MZ said, those industrious workers under Demo after RP are a thing to behold .

	27-06-2003 16:14									#35
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Ideally, you never disband or join workers and they are working all the time and you face worker shortage rather than surplus.

In surplus situations, either you've created too many workers yourself, or you got too lucky and captured/bought too many slave workers. If the former is the case, disband and join the workers to cut some gpt payments, if the latter is the case, fortify and wait for jobs.

Good Empire management implies good management of supply and demand of workers. If you're suffering worker surpluses pre RR, then you've overbuilt workers relative to the size of your Empire or your tech progress is too slow. Surpluses shouldn't be an issue until AFTER RR when most of the major work is done. Even then, I still find use for my workers clearing large patches of jungles, changing some mines to irrigation to increase specialists etc.

	27-06-2003 20:31									#36
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Solomwi what you say is true in general, but we are talking about a specific set of parameters. In this case we have essentially unlimited slaves. Hence no wait, no need to retain natives.
The Demo and Replacement parts effects slaves as well as natives. They work at half the natives speed regardless of the speed of the natives. This means every time you get a tech that increase the natives, it increases the slaves as well.
All the external parameters and conditions that are being tossed in are swell, but we have only one set of conditions in this example. I am only addressing this one proposition.

	27-06-2003 20:58									#37
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I realize that, but we're not given enough information to really avoid general best practices type arguments. He says he has trillions of workers, obviously an exaggeration, but we don't know (unless I missed a posted .sav) the size of the map or his empire, the actual number of captured workers, city spacing, etc. that would all go into a decision of how much manpower is needed and can be afforded once one hits the industrial age. Without that, looking at as many combinations of those factors as possible is really all we can do.

	27-06-2003 21:14									#38
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Well he did say that all work was done at that point and the workers were idle. I see no reason to think he was negligent and should be doing some work that is not being done. So we have no need to hold the natives in this scenario.
That is not to say that there are no cases where it would make sense to keep them, only that I see none for this one.

	28-06-2003 06:03									#39
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Native workers often make the difference in the RR frenzy phase of the game, especially if a war creeps up or there is suddenly a production race for wonders. Depending on where he is in the game, saving gpt may not be that significant if Steam power is just a few turns away.

In a general sense, and not having had the chance to see his game, it is very odd to have surplus labour before RR. Either his game is just chugging along and no one is researching any techs, or he built too many workers to begin with

	28-06-2003 11:05									#40
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dexters you are reading in things that are not in evidence, that is my whole point. We are talking about a set of circumstances that are defined, not a maybe or a what if. That is a different issue.
Yes IF we had RR soon and IF we this or that blah blah blah. We do not have any other conditions and under the ones we have there is no reason to pay for natives to sit on their hands, when you have copious slaves sitting on their hands. Not what IF we do not have lots of slaves, that is the condition we were given.
IOW if you change the hypothesis all bets are off.

	28-06-2003 15:59									#41
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He mentioned he just invaded the persians to grab some jungle territory. I'd say keeping all workers would be beneficial for fast jungle clearing.

Again, no game was posted so your guess is as good as mine. That said, if he overbuilt workers, I would prescribe as you did. Simply disband the ones that cost money. But barring how the other variables fall in the place (time to RR) the specifics of the map, etc, 15 gpt is nothing and it would be best to keep the natives around rather than switch cities to building workers when RR hits. With a war in progress, I see no reason to disband workers. The natives will pay dividends with the jungles.

I do not mean to exclude your views, and I hope you're not offended by my own take the situation. We just don't agree 100%, that's all. I go into the What ifs, and alternate scenarios because the poster wasn't clear in laying out the situation.

Last edited by dexters on 28-06-2003 at 16:22

	29-06-2003 00:40									#42
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A quick update :

After conquering all the cities around my FP and Palace I stopped with the wars, cleaned ~30 Jungle tiles, built a shitload of Radar Towers, added pop in some slow growing cities and now I have 7 native workers as crack pollution reducing teams and 24 fortified slaves for emergencies.

It was annoying to manage them all, but they were very helpful. It took me 10 turns to completely develop the lands around 6 newly conquered cities.

	29-06-2003 00:46									#43
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Sounds good to me Eli.

	29-06-2003 01:07									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Eli A quick update : After conquering all the cities around my FP and Palace I stopped with the wars, cleaned ~30 Jungle tiles, built a shitload of Radar Towers, added pop in some slow growing cities and now I have 7 native workers as crack pollution reducing teams and 24 fortified slaves for emergencies. It was annoying to manage them all, but they were very helpful. It took me 10 turns to completely develop the lands around 6 newly conquered cities.

That's one of the things with the late game when it is not uncommon to spend 20, 30 minutes moving your workers around. I usually get up to 40 - 50 workers on my huge map games so it's even worse.

When industrial revolution goes into full swing, those workers will have lots of jobs cleaning pollution so I'd recommend against disbanding any. With At least you can splurge a bit and build coal plants in your core cities while you wait for Hoovers.

	29-06-2003 01:17									#45
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Sorry, I thought you had more slave workers than that or I wouldn't have recommended disbanding as many. You'll definitely need a few more workers for railroading and pollution control when that starts up. Capturing more from other civs is my favorite way. I like to have at least 40 captured workers by around the middle of the Industrial Age if possible. By the middle of the Modern Age though (assuming I've built the anti-pollution improvements) then I start thinning the worker force again.

	29-06-2003 01:31									#46
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Rhothaerill, Nothing to be sorry about, Not enough info was given.

	29-06-2003 01:46									#47
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One possibility is to make a beeline for Sanitation(4-7 techs away). You could then build some hospitals and let the captured workers join the cities, or you could set the construction of more cities for the workers to join into.

	29-06-2003 06:36									#48
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Never disband native Workers... join them to captured cities. And I'm with vxma1, once you have enough (zillions) of captured Workers, get rid of the natives.

Never join slave Workers, ever. Keep'em on standby. Some things in life are free.

	29-06-2003 10:20									#49
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I suppose I should have clarified myself. By disbanding I meant joining to a city. Oops, gotta be more clear on things.

	29-06-2003 21:04									#50
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Why state the obvious. What does it have to do with the discussion? Are you trying to confuse me, it is easy to do. Like you always say have a nice day and I mean it. A little banter is fine by me.

hi ,

obviously it was not obvious to some , ......

a little banter might be fine by you , but therefore not for some else , .....

have a great day

	01-07-2003 19:03									#51
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quote: Sorry, I thought you had more slave workers than that or I wouldn't have recommended disbanding as many.

I HAD many more slave workers than that. There isnt a tile in my empire that is not in range of some Radar Tower, thanks to them.

	01-07-2003 19:35									#52
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i didn't read the entire post, so someone might have said this, but...
i just send workers to my capitol and trade them. especially on lower difficulty levels, sending enough workers to a single civ, for gold, will entirely ruin them. they lose there entire bank paying for all them, and then have to pay the upkeep... i do this to civs (on lower dif. because the ai gets insane unit upkeep bonuses on monarch+) about 20-30 turns before i invade them, then i get them all back...

	02-07-2003 05:12									#53
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Great idea, zorbop. Don;t take this the wrong way, but that feels sorta exploit-ish, to me at least. (slick, though )

	02-07-2003 06:24									#54
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Hum do they pay maint on non native worker that they buy? I never notice, so I do not know. I just thought you only pay for natives.

	02-07-2003 08:09									#55
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This only workes with workers of their own that they buy back.

	02-07-2003 08:17									#56
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hi ,

dont forget that you can start wars by giving loads of workers from one civ to an other , ..... germans to french , zulu to british , ....... always tends to break relations , ......

have a nice day

	02-07-2003 09:09									#57
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I think zorbop is more focused on the sale cost as opposed to the maintenance.

	02-07-2003 10:22									#58
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True, I think it came out in an earlier thread that the AI will start disbanding them in the maintenance is too high. Of course, if you have enough of their workers to sell back to them, they'll always buy, in my experience, and the maintenance costs could force them to disband that worker they just paid you 20-30 gold for. It's take a nice convergence of circumstances for that to work, though.